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View Poll Results: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough???
YES 10 71.43%
NO 4 28.57%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 05-26-2008, 09:59 AM
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Re: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover View Post
I chalked that up as a typo, but you are right - how much thought and serenity went into it if they let that stand?
Of course, like I'm the one to criticize on a typo...

It's just that there is complexity within the Godhead and sometimes it's very obvious that we as Oneness people are not always prepared to grapple with that.

And for the record... that's one thing that I liked about the WPF statement of faith. It does acknowledge the complexities in what I thought was a theologically mature fashion.
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  #22  
Old 05-26-2008, 10:02 AM
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Re: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
Of course, like I'm the one to criticize on a typo...

It's just that there is complexity within the Godhead and sometimes it's very obvious that we as Oneness people are not always prepared to grapple with that.

And for the record... that's one thing that I liked about the WPF statement of faith. It does acknowledge the complexities in what I thought was a theologically mature fashion.

That would be Talmage French's mind at work.
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I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

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  #23  
Old 05-26-2008, 10:14 AM
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Re: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

I didn't vote, but my guess is the voting will more than likely fall along 1 vs 3 stepper lines.
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  #24  
Old 05-26-2008, 12:05 PM
Joelel Joelel is offline
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Re: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

Apostolic means the teaching of the apostles.You must believe the full truth teaching of the apostles to be apostolic.
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  #25  
Old 05-26-2008, 12:06 PM
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Re: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

Thanks for everyone's response. Most probably already know this statement of Faith came from TD Jakes The Potters House website. I did not want to say who the Pastor was in the beginning because I did not want everyone to judge the pastor. I just wanted everyone to critique the statement of faith. I am sure this has been hashed and re-hashed before but below is an article Bishop Jakes participated in concerning his views.

My Views on the Godhead
Jakes responds to Christianity Today article, Apologetics Journal Criticizes Jakes.
By Bishop T. D. Jakes | Hearsay, not heresy. | posted 2/01/2000 12:00AM


I was raised Baptist and became Pentecostal 26 years ago at a Greater Emmanuel Apostolic Church, where I was later ordained a Bishop. I resigned from that denomination 11 years ago, and have continued to fellowship with Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies. This small fellowship of churches is not a denomination, and differs in many ways from traditional Apostolic churches.

Both chapters of my early spiritual journey contributed volumes to my faith and walk with God, helping to hone my character. I was shaped by and appreciate both denominations, but am controlled by neither. My association with Oneness people does not constitute assimilation into their ranks any more than my association with the homeless in our city makes me one of them.

Day-to-day, my affiliation is with the Pater Alliance, an interdenominational network of some 250 churches, which I founded three years ago and serve as CEO, senior minister, and mentor, providing leadership for pastors from Presbyterian, to Baptist, to Pentecostal. My own 23,000-member church, The Potter's House in Dallas, is non-denominational and growing exponentially. There, I serve widely different people whose common desire is to know God, and to grow in the knowledge of, and fellowship with, Jesus Christ.

While I mix with Christians from a broad range of theological perspectives, I speak only for my personal faith and convictions. I am not a theologian, and I avoid quoting even theologians who agree with me. To defend my beliefs, I go directly to the Bible.

My views on the Godhead are from 1 John 5:7-8, "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (NKJV)

I believe in one God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe these three have distinct and separate functions—so separate that each has individual attributes, yet are one. I do not believe in three Gods.

Many things can be said about the Son that cannot be said about the Father. The Son was born of a virgin; the Father created the virgin from whom He was born. The Son slept (Luke 8:23), but the Father never sleeps (Psalm 121:3-5). The Son took on the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), but God is a spirit (John 4:24). Likewise, several characteristics are distinctive to the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit alone empowers (Acts 1:8), indwells (2 Timothy 1:15), and guides the believer (John 16:14).

In spite of all the distinctives, God is one in His essence. Though no human illustration perfectly fits the Divine, it is similar to ice, water and steam: three separate forms, yet all H²O. Each element can co-exist, each has distinguishing characteristics and functions, but all have sameness.

In 1 Timothy 3:16, the Apostle Paul says, "Without controversy, great is the mystery of Godliness." Without controversy, it is a mystery, not always to be figured out, but to be entered into.

The language in the doctrinal statement of our ministry that refers to the Trinity of the Godhead as "manifestations" does not derive from modalism. The Apostle Paul himself used this term referring to the Godhead in 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:7, and 1 John 3:5-8. Peter also used the term in 1 Peter 1:20. Can this word now be heresy when it is a direct quote from the Pauline epistles and used elsewhere in the New Testament?

I believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. I believe He was born of a virgin, crucified on a cross, arose from the dead, and is coming again for His church. I believe He sent the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the Church. And I believe in justification by faith. I also believe that baptism is a commandment to be observed in obedience to God's Word. The rites of baptism are celebrated in our church by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ. I have always, without exception, baptized as the early church did in Acts 2:38, 10:44 and 9:1-4. That is my conviction, based on Scripture.

Nevertheless, many of my respected colleagues quote Matthew 28:19 when they baptize, while others use both, saying, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, we do all things in Jesus' name." Our love for the same Lord has enabled us to walk together in love without dissension and in spite of variance in procedures.

I deeply appreciate the chance to respond to any misunderstandings that may have resulted in part from my silence on these subjects. Little if any attention is given to any of them in my books or sermons. My silence has not been some veiled attempt to disguise my faith, which is demonstrated daily in the works I have been called to do. My voice may have seemed muted on these subjects, but I have made a distinct sound regarding the matters that I have been assigned to discuss with my generation. I have spoken boldly against domestic violence—and against physical, sexual and emotional abuse of women in this nation. I have thundered as an advocate of reconciliation between races and denominations, and for restoration of hurting souls to the healing properties of Christ's love.

I confess that I have remained aloof from the theological controversies. And I confess I have been universal in my associations, purposely ignoring opportunities to be divisive. But it was not lack of conviction, or absence of proper Christian ideals, that had taken my attention—I love the great principles and tenets of our faith, and I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet it is not the oneness of God for which I cry, it is for the oneness of His people.

When I think of the Trinity, I consider how Jesus prayed under the unction of the Holy Spirit that we would be one even as He and the Father are one. To that end, I preach, write and work. No truth exemplified by the Trinity is greater than Christian unity. As we seek to dissect the divine, articulate the abstract, and defend what I agree are precious truths, I hope we do not miss the greater message taught by the concept of the Trinity. And that is that three—though distinct—are still one!

Bishop T.D. Jakes is the founder and Senior Pastor of The Potter's House in Dallas, one of the largest churches in the nation.

Related Elsewhere

See today's related article, " Apologetics Journal Criticizes T.D. Jakes | Christian Research Institute publication questions preacher's view of Trinity"
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  #26  
Old 05-26-2008, 12:42 PM
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Re: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

This is old news but I do like TD Jakes take on the Oneness.
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"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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  #27  
Old 05-26-2008, 12:47 PM
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Re: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

I still like to hear him preach.
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He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
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  #28  
Old 05-26-2008, 12:48 PM
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Re: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

I would not however call him a pastor. His church is way too big for that, as are some others. It's a business.
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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
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  #29  
Old 05-26-2008, 05:10 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Re: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cneasttx View Post
I would not however call him a pastor. His church is way too big for that, as are some others. It's a business.
I'm sure many of those who look at Jakes' ministry and see that huge body of believers from afar might feel some apprehension about the whole thing. As one such "outsider" I wonder what it's like to either be involved as a parishoner or as a member of the ministery there.

But I'm sure that Jakes is wise enough to keep his finger on the pulse of the people he leads. He obviously cannot "pastor" the 10,000's of people who attend services at the Potter's House with the same level of contact and rapport. But he probably pastors the pastors and many of the "old timers" still.

The fact that he has been able to keep it all together at this level does show he knows something about business, too; if only the ability to find the right businessmen to help him out. But many people simply don't like "mega-churches." In fact, from the numbers reported across denominational lines most Christians don't attend the mega churches in their area. I don't know what the numbers are today, but several years ago Barna reported that the average size of a church in America was 75 members.
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  #30  
Old 05-26-2008, 07:18 PM
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Re: Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover View Post
This is old news but I do like TD Jakes take on the Oneness.
Jakes does not claim to be Oneness though..
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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