My Pastor Said Something Profound Tonight.

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

IF the guy said he wasn't preaching standards any longer they should leave period. IF he didn't say that they should either get their hearing checked or stop lying.

I didn't see where the pastor said or HO said that he wasn't preaching standards any longer....

He said that people can come to church as they are. Doesn't matter to him if women cut their hair or wear pants, only that they come to church and be saved. He said that it's not our works that save us anyway.

As stand alone statements, I wouldn't disagree with this.... in my church, there are many sinners who will come as they are (with no standards), get saved, and later hear standards/holiness preaching that they can apply to their lives.

The statement "He said that it's not our works that save us anyway" is true, in the context of salvation.... which is what he was talking about at the time. it is because of His grace and mercy that we can even have the chance of salvation, not by our "works" (trying to live right, clean up our lives, etc) before we come to God. Mind you, we still have to repent, be baptized in Jesus name, receive the HG.... but it wasn't because of us, it was because of Him that we can be saved.... hopefully that makes sense....

perhaps I missed seeing something you did???

Heaven help the church where the pastor tries something new.
No wonder pastors are getting frustrated and leaving the ministry.
If you maintain the status quo - you are a stick in the mud hindering revival.
If you try new things - and most often you hear about them from somewhere and they sound good to you and you try them - you are a dilettante jumping from one thing to another with no stability.
If you meet with people individually and regularly you are controlling.
If you don't meet with people you are disinterested.
If you preach the Bible you are a compromiser.
If you preach standards you are a legalist.
If you smile a lot you are too frivolous
If you keep a straight face at the foolishness in the pew you are too solemn
If you preach short you are a lightweight
If you preach long you are a bore
If you are skinny you are too thin
If you are fat you aren't skinny enough
If you drive a beater you are a disgrace
If you drive a nice car you are a spendthrift
If...... get the picture?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

I didn't see where the pastor said or HO said that he wasn't preaching standards any longer....



As stand alone statements, I wouldn't disagree with this.... in my church, there are many sinners who will come as they are (with no standards), get saved, and later hear standards/holiness preaching that they can apply to their lives.

The statement "He said that it's not our works that save us anyway" is true, in the context of salvation.... which is what he was talking about at the time. it is because of His grace and mercy that we can even have the chance of salvation, not by our "works" (trying to live right, clean up our lives, etc) before we come to God. Mind you, we still have to repent, be baptized in Jesus name, receive the HG.... but it wasn't because of us, it was because of Him that we can be saved.... hopefully that makes sense....

perhaps I missed seeing something you did???

There is hardly a service we do not have sinners and yes they come as there are and are welcome and we make a BIG deal about visitors I pastor the friendliest church in Pentecost. But evidently this pastor was NOT speaking about sinners it sounds like the people will now become their own pastor and no crying voice will be in the pulpit.

[CC1]

HO,

I agree with those who think you need to have some dialogue with this Pastor before making the momentous decison to leave.

Perhaps once he shares with you one on one his vision for the things he is doing you will agree. Or perhaps you will be able to share with him what you see as the negative aspects of what he is doing (keeping the kids in the main service too long,etc). It is possible no one has pointed this out to him.

Although, this is a forum where many find the ability to pour out their hearts to others and get feedback that helps them continue on with their various situations, I find that it can also be dangerous. You have presented a life situation that could not only drastically change your own life but the ones of your children. In my opinion, doing so without consulting the man of God in your life could be tragic. Also, I believe that you probably have but pray and fast as well for direction. By positing your situation on here you have gotten answers from all over the spectrum. How are you to know what to do? I do think it boils down to three things. Pray, talk to your Pastor, make sure that what your pastor teaches lines up with the Word of God. It it does, then pray and talk to God about things in your life that you need to change so that you can be a positive influence in your church. If the pastor does not line up with the Word of God then you do have a life changing decision to make, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

He was preaching tonight about various things, but mentioned that there are people who take one verse out of the Bible and make a doctrine out of it. He went on to say that the Bible says in the mouth of two or three witnesses that all words should be established and that people don't need a list of rules to attend his church.

Now, before some of you take in a deep breath to hold for 30 seconds, let me say that he also said he preaches the Bible, and if it's not in there, he's not preaching it. I was waiting.....out of curiosity......if he was going to mention standards in any way.

He did. He said that people can come to church as they are. Doesn't matter to him if women cut their hair or wear pants, only that they come to church and be saved. He said that it's not our works that save us anyway.

Hold on. I heard a couple of you inhale deeply and quite loudly.

He mentioned again that he preached the Bible. Now, knowing what I know of him, I know that he believes in standards, so I'm waiting for him to say something contrary to that.

Well, he didn't. He wasn't obvious about it, but he did make the statement that he preaches the Bible and if people don't obey, he's not going to force the issue, but that they are welcome to his church regardless.

My dilemma is that I've been thinking about attending another church soon. However, the nearest one is 40 miles away. I was thinking of leaving for several different reasons but nothing really to do with standards.

In the 18 months I've been attending here, I've never talked to him on a personal basis. He's not one to be pushy, and I respect that, but I feel that he's not too interested by not talking to me.

Some have asked if I requested a meeting with him. No, I haven't. I'm not good at that kind of thing. I'm used to pastors wanting to talk to me and I comply with a meeting. No biggie.

However, after hearing this message tonight, I'd really like to talk to him. I want to be careful and not sound confronting or accusational or whatever, but I'm interested in hearing him explain how he doesn't believe people should make a salvational doctrine out of one verse, but he does that with standards issues, if he even realizes it.

I'm also not sure if changing churches is a good idea at this time. There are other things going on with my children that I feel might be detrimental if I were to change right now. A week ago, I felt it was the right thing to do. Right now, I don't feel it's time.

Anyway, I'm just unsure as to what to do. But I do fully believe in listening to what God has to say, and I will just have to wait on Him to decide for me.

You've been in that church for 18 months and you've never gone to talk to the pastor? Maybe instead of leaving the church you should go up to your pastor and introduce yourself. "Hi, Pastor, I'm Sister so-and-so." Who do you think you are to believe that it's up to the pastor (the one whom GOD has placed over you) to come to YOU and talk to YOU? Why haven't you humbled yourself and gone to your pastor?

By the way, I'm saying this as someone who absolutely hates initiating a conversation. Sometimes you just have to do it!

[Nahum]

Posted by TVA1

If you can't support the pastor vision the best thing to do get out...

I don't think this is bad advice. I would add this; submit, or remove.
It really is that simple.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

I completely agree with Rhoni regarding her post....

translation: he would probably be completely blind-sided.... and left standing in a complete daze, wondering why a saint just got up and left his church without reason....

I've heard that an amazing invention just made it to WI recently.... a telephone.... why don't you give it a try??? Have a talk with him and try to understand his side of the coin, you might get alot of insight and feel a whole lot better about the situation.... or you might leave with none of your questions answered.... but either way, you'll know for sure and be able to go from there....

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

There is hardly a service we do not have sinners and yes they come as there are and are welcome and we make a BIG deal about visitors I pastor the friendliest church in Pentecost. But evidently this pastor was NOT speaking about sinners it sounds like the people will now become their own pastor and no crying voice will be in the pulpit.

Once again, that may very well be the case.... help me understand what you are basing that statement off of.... what in HO's posts led you to that conclusion.... I read about how the church services were chaotic, but I didn't read where he left preaching what he once did....

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

My reason isn't because of standard issues, especially since I'd be attending another UPC church.

There are several things going on. Nothing salvational, but things that are disturbing me. I guess it was because of how I was raised.

Oh, yes, if things aren't being done the way we were raised, they're wrong!

Just to mention one of those things....

He compares himself and the church to other pastors and their churches. If they do something that is working to make their churches better and bring people in, he wants to try it on his church.

I'm not sure whether such comparison is a good thing or a bad thing but if some other church is doing something that works, what's wrong with the pastor getting permission from the Holy Ghost to do it in his church?

Now, I'm not totally against that, but in doing that, he is often implementing new ideas and changing things. For me, it's quite confusing.

That's because you're stuck in tradition, in routine.

One of those things is involving children in almost everything. He has all the children who ride the bus eat breakfast when they arrive. This means they are late to service and walk in for about 15 minutes. To me, this is very distracting.

Well, excuse us for distracting you! Maybe by feeding these children (who might not otherwise get breakfast), your pastor is doing a good work that may serve as a testimony to the community that "this is a church that really cares."

After he sings a few songs, he has people come to get prayed for. He calls the children up (keep in mind that most of them are bus kids who's parents don't attend and never have) to pray for people. This is a good idea if there were adults to guide the children. Instead, it looks like a zoo up there, and very disorganized. The kids just don't know what to do.

Why is this a problem? What did Jesus say to the disciples when they objected to all those children being brought to him?

He has the kids line up in the front of the church and sing 'I am a Friend of God'. This is very cool and I really enjoy it. He passes the mic around and the kids take turns singing in it. This is very special and the kids behave while doing this.

So, why do you have a problem with this?

He now has started doing a skit that lasts for about 5-10 minutes involving adults and a topic that is over the kids' heads. He did this last week for the first time and when the kids clapped, along with a few adults, he admonished them for it, stating that it was very serious and not something to be clapped for. What else are kids supposed to do after a skit?

Why were some of the adults clapping? Shouldn't THEY have known this was "very serious and not something to be clapped for"? I don't know exactly what you mean when you say he admonished them for clapping but I suspect that what he did wasn't as out of proportion as you make it seem.

The kids are in the sanctuary for about an hour before being dismissed to their classes. By this time, there are kids laying on the floor from boredom, and they are allowed to go in and out without anyone directing them. I have found kids in the kitchen looking for something additional to eat as there are no adults down there and nobody is tracking them to make sure they are only going to the bathroom or whatever.

Yes, and what about all the children who were present when Jesus preached the sermon on the mount? How long were they sitting there? I don't doubt that someone should be keeping track of the children and not let them wander all over the place. Well, well, it looks like you just might have something to talk to your pastor about instead of sitting there on your blessed assurance waiting for him to come to you as if you are soooooo far superior to him.

It's getting to the point where I don't even want to go to SS anymore. I can't take the distractions. When I was in church as a child, I was taught respect and there was no way I would leave the sanctuary for any reason without my mother. The ushers wouldn't let me anyway.

As I said, this is just one of several issues that bother me.

So, instead of leaving the church, DO SOMETHING! Go talk to your pastor. Talk to the elders. It's amazing how well actually talking to people works. Jesus commanded us that if we have something against someone, we're to GO TO THAT PERSON and talk to him about it.