Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

[Antipas]

I think I have to mention something here. I'm seeing a lot of people personally attacking the individual asking the question instead of answering the question asked. The original post was:

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I had mentioned this some time back and was denounced. Here's an interesting article:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=62656

Are we feeding a beast that forces abortion (61 babies per hour) with our free trade policies?

After reviewing the article I think it should be discussed outside of attacking the one asking the question for merely asking the question. I wonder, is our refusal to even seriously consider the moral implications of what is presented here a validation of the point made? Are we too willing to look the other way if it saves us money?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Chris,

You can't have it both ways. You claim abortion in America is due primarily to the fact that there are poor people who do not have enough and so they abort. Then you turn around and say that America is responsible for Chinese abortions because we have caused too much economic growth. Which is it my friend wealth or poverty? Or should we just tax everyone until we are equally poor to stop abortions. Can America do anything right?

I think you're misinterpreting the problem Baron. In America abortion is tragically linked to poverty. It's a proven fact that most abortions are in the lower income brackets.

China instituted a mandatory one child rule, forcing multitudes of women into having abortions, so in China the issue is mandated policies from the government not necessarily poverty. Here’s the disconnect for the ethicist; we who pride ourselves with being pro-life see no problem with open and free trade with China and buying Chinese goods if it saves us money. If one proposes trade barriers with China based on human rights violations they are decried as being protectionists, socialists, or anti-free market. Compare our position with Cuba. We will not trade with Cuba, Iran, etc. based on their violations of human rights. It seems to be hypocritical and targeted. We appear to only care about human rights if there’s no money to be made. Once we find that we can profit in business with them, we don’t care if they murder people, babies, or women. We don’t care about the sweatshops, slave labor, and lack of safety and just working conditions. We seem to only care about one thing…money.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Since Yuppie Americans adopt thousands of Chinese babies a year; I would say the abortion rate has little to nothing to do with America. A good percentage of American children have Chinese descent.

That’s not the issue here Rhoni. The issue is China’s policy is “forced” abortion by mandate of law. That’s more heinous than denying people the right to vote or speak. That’s a governmental policy of genocidal proportions. Something like over 400 MILLION babies have been systematically terminated by decree of the Chinese government. Hitler killed 6 million Jews and America’s abortion policies (choice) have killed 45 million babies. China’s whole sale destruction of the unborn should make any true Christian absolutely furious with free and open trade with the nation. We criticize the Democrats for being “pro-choice”…but we sing the praises of Republicans who safeguard the policies and corporations who are profiting off of doing business with a nation that forces women to have abortion at gun point. Morally, which is worse? In America individual women can choose to have or not to have an abortion. In China they are forced to have an abortion if they already have a child.

Would we support free and open trade with Nazi Germany?
Would we support free and open trade with Cuba?

Why do we protect and defend what may be the largest human rights violator on earth?
What is the human toll of being able to save a buck at Wal-Mart?

These are very thought provoking questions and considerations I see you all ignoring.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I think you're misinterpreting the problem Baron. In America abortion is tragically linked to poverty. It's a proven fact that most abortions are in the lower income brackets.

China instituted a mandatory one child rule, forcing multitudes of women into having abortions, so in China the issue is mandated policies from the government not necessarily poverty. Here’s the disconnect for the ethicist; we who pride ourselves with being pro-life see no problem with open and free trade with China and buying Chinese goods if it saves us money. If one proposes trade barriers with China based on human rights violations they are decried as being protectionists, socialists, or anti-free market. Compare our position with Cuba. We will not trade with Cuba, Iran, etc. based on their violations of human rights. It seems to be hypocritical and targeted. We appear to only care about human rights if there’s no money to be made. Once we find that we can profit in business with them, we don’t care if they murder people, babies, or women. We don’t care about the sweatshops, slave labor, and lack of safety and just working conditions. We seem to only care about one thing…money.

Those statistics are a bit deceiving. Where do you think a 16 year old girl is classified if she has an abortion? Never mind her parents make 250,000 a year she is "poor" she has no income. As I understand it most abortions are for the purpose of birth control. North of 64% of abortions are performed on never married women, over half of abortions are performed on women with an income greater than $30,000. Remember we rely on people who make their fortunes on abortions to gather the facts and they know exactly how to spin it to keep the money coming in.

Free trade is not as arbitrary as you make it sound. The reality is trade embargos by the US alone doesn't hurt them as much as we like to think (them being any country not just China). The US policy in free trade is two-fold, to export western ideas and thought while giving us leverage to negotiate, and to bring up the economies of our neighbors, such as Mexico. Our trade policies are complex and take into account economics as well as security and other issues.

Abortions in China are a result not of evil factory owners who want to make money, but an evil communist regime that has had that policy in place for decades now. Those who always fault the US have finally come up with a “reason” to blame us, once again, for all the evils in the world.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Antipas

That’s not the issue here Rhoni. The issue is China’s policy is “forced” abortion by mandate of law. That’s more heinous than denying people the right to vote or speak. That’s a governmental policy of genocidal proportions. Something like over 400 MILLION babies have been systematically terminated by decree of the Chinese government. Hitler killed 6 million Jews and America’s abortion policies (choice) have killed 45 million babies. China’s whole sale destruction of the unborn should make any true Christian absolutely furious with free and open trade with the nation. We criticize the Democrats for being “pro-choice”…but we sing the praises of Republicans who safeguard the policies and corporations who are profiting off of doing business with a nation that forces women to have abortion at gun point. Morally, which is worse? In America individual women can choose to have or not to have an abortion. In China they are forced to have an abortion if they already have a child.

Would we support free and open trade with Nazi Germany?
Would we support free and open trade with Cuba?

Why do we protect and defend what may be the largest human rights violator on earth?
What is the human toll of being able to save a buck at Wal-Mart?

These are very thought provoking questions and considerations I see you all ignoring.

Antipas, I applaud your ability to sweep away the foolish rhetoric of man-v-man yak and your attempt to bring the discussion back to an important consideration (and certainly THANKS are due Chris for the challenging introspection that this thread is attempting to provoke).

It is very reasonable that we each need to consider if an informed purchaser of goods and services would transact business with a centrally controlled economy that denies its citizen's the freedom to have more than one child.

[Baron1710]

In spite of the fact that I disagree with the premise of this thread, I personally try to purchase goods produced elsewhere and preferably the US. However, I am in a position to do that at this point. Many folks are on a very tight budget, and are effectively forced to buy the cheapest items. Not everyone can buy a Stihl chainsaw (made in a variety of countries but not China...yet). I hate Chinese junk. But that doesn't mean a purchase of Chinese junk is equal to forcing abortions. This is an old policy for the Chinese and they enforce it just like they always have.

[tbpew]

IMO,
A title like "Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?" does not give the best opportunity for edification to occur.

If I seem like I am nit-picking, I apologize in advance for causing that impression.

Sharing guilt has NO productive or useful UPSIDE.

It may seem like excessive wordsmith but....
I think the thought that each of us should wrestle and resolve is..."Do my purchasing choices perpetuate (or fund) injustice?"

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Those statistics are a bit deceiving. Where do you think a 16 year old girl is classified if she has an abortion? Never mind her parents make 250,000 a year she is "poor" she has no income. As I understand it most abortions are for the purpose of birth control. North of 64% of abortions are performed on never married women, over half of abortions are performed on women with an income greater than $30,000. Remember we rely on people who make their fortunes on abortions to gather the facts and they know exactly how to spin it to keep the money coming in.

You make some good points; please site where you’re statistics came from.

Free trade is not as arbitrary as you make it sound. The reality is trade embargos by the US alone doesn't hurt them as much as we like to think (them being any country not just China). The US policy in free trade is two-fold, to export western ideas and thought while giving us leverage to negotiate, and to bring up the economies of our neighbors, such as Mexico. Our trade policies are complex and take into account economics as well as security and other issues.

You’re placing the benefits of economic policies above morality. Would you support free and open trade with Nazi Germany if the ovens and gas chambers were in use?

Abortions in China are a result not of evil factory owners who want to make money, but an evil communist regime that has had that policy in place for decades now. Those who always fault the US have finally come up with a “reason” to blame us, once again, for all the evils in the world.

China is a communist country. Factories etc. are chartered and essentially owned by the government and only operated by private interests. Therefore the factory is an extension of government in China. The government of China benefits from revenues generated by trade with the US through taxation and global recognition and respect.

I’d really appreciate it if you would answer this question:

Would you support free and open trade with Nazi Germany if the ovens and gas chambers were in use? Yes or No?

I fear the assumption of this thread is right. We don’t care about human life or rights if the price is right. If you buy Chinese, you're voting with your dollar. Just as if you were buying Nazi German goods during WWII. Morally, one should strive to only buy from Fair Trade networks that respect human rights.

The forced abortion rooms of China are worse than the rape rooms in Iraq.

You continue to avoid the issues presented by the WND article.

[Antipas]

Here's a statistical analysis I was able to find about abortion in America:

Part I: Who Has Abortions?
Since Roe v. Wade made abortion legal nationwide in 1973, there have been more
than 40 million abortions in America. One of every three American women will have an
abortion by the time they reach 45.i Assuming that roughly as many men were involved
as the father in these abortions, one in three adults between the ages of 45 and 70 has
been personally involved in at least one abortion.

Part I, Finding #1
More than one in five pregnancies end in abortion.
• In a typical year there are about 4.1 million live births, 1.3 million abortions, and
900,000 miscarriages. ii
• 21% of all pregnancies end in abortion, 14% in miscarriage, and 65% in birth.
• When miscarriages are factored out, one in four of the remaining pregnancies end
in abortion.

Part I, Finding #2
Abortion rates in the U.S. have been steadily declining.
• The number of abortions in America has declined from an all time high of 1.6
million in 1990 to 1.3 million in 2000 (the latest year available).iii
• The abortion rate — that is the number of abortions per woman of childbearing
age — has declined by 28% between 1980 and 2000.iv Most of the decline is due
to a reduction in teen pregnancies, which is mostly due to declining rates of teen
sexual activity and increasing use of contraception among those who engage in
sex. Between 1995 and 2002, the percentage of 15-19 year old males who had sex

Pregnancy Outcomes, Finding #3
Abortion
21%
Miscarriage
Live Birth 14%
65%
declined from 55.3% to 46.0%. Likewise, the rates for females declined from 51.7%
to 46.8%.v
• The use of the birth control pills for contraception increased from 51.6% to 61.4%
over the same period. Other forms of contraceptive use increased as well.vi
Part I, Finding #3
75% of all abortions are to women under 30.
• The median age of a woman who has an abortion is 24.
• Nearly one in five abortions are performed on teenagers. Another one-third are
performed on women between ages 20 and 24. Women over 30 constitute onequarter
of all abortions. Girls under 15 represent 0.7% of all abortions. Women
over 40 represent 3.1% of all abortions.vii

Part I, Finding #4
Most women who have abortions are unmarried.
Fewer than one in five abortions are performed on married women. viii
Marital Status of Women Who Obtain Abortions
Single, Never-
Married Women
67%
Separated,
Widowed, or
Divorced
Women
16%
Married Women
17%
Abortions by Age of Woman
Under 20
19%
20 - 29
56%
30+ Years
of Age
25%

Part I, Finding #5
When a teenager becomes pregnant, abortion is a likely outcome.
• There are 8 abortions for every 10 live births to girls under 15.
• There are 4 abortions for every 10 live births to girls between 15 and 19.ix

Part I, Finding #6
Women who have abortions tend to be low income, but that could be a
factor of their age rather than their poverty status.
57% of women who seek an abortion have incomes that are below twice the federal
poverty level. However, the portrait that it paints of them as poor could be misleading.
52% of women who have an abortion are under the age of 25. Young people simply
earn less than older people and single people earn far less than married people. For
example, a 2003 census bureau study found that those under 25 with a bachelor’s
degree earned on average $22,000 while those between 25 and 29 with the same
degree earned $39,000.x Thus, these women could have low incomes, but they could
also have wealthy or middle class parents.
• Only one in four women who sought an abortion had income levels above 300%
of poverty ($42,000).
• Only 21% of women said inadequate finances was the main reason for choosing
an abortion.xi

Part I, Finding #7
Whites account for the most abortions, but relative to their population,
Blacks and Hispanics have a disproportionate share of abortions.
• Though whites represent 69% of the population, they account for only 41% of the
nation’s abortions.
• Blacks are 12% of the nation’s population and had 32% of the nation’s abortions.
• Hispanics are 13% of the population and had 20% of the nation’s abortions.xii
Abortions by Race in a Typical Year
0%
20%
40%
60%
80%
Whites Blacks Hispanics
Percent of
Population
Percent of Abortions

Part I, Finding #8
There is a vast gap between the rhetorical positions that religious leaders
take on abortion and the actual practices of the laity in those religions.
Catholics and Protestants have abortion rates that are roughly commensurate with
their share of the population.
• Catholics represent 24% of the populationxiii and 27% of those having abortions —
roughly 350,000 per year.xiv
• Protestants represent 49% of the populationxv and 43% of those having abortions
— roughly 560,000 per year.xvi
• 13% of those having abortions are self-described Born-Again or Evangelical
Christians — roughly 170,000 per year.xvii

Part I, Finding #9
At the time most women have an abortion they already have a child. Half
have had a previous abortion.
The argument that abortion is widely used as a method of birth control is not borne
out by the data. Slightly over half of those having an abortion will have only one. Of the
remaining group that has had more than one abortion, more than half will have only
two. It is more likely that a woman who has an abortion has already had a previous birth
than a previous abortion.
• 61% of women who have an abortion have had a prior birth
• 48% of women who have an abortion have had a previous abortion.xviii xix
Multiple Abortions Are Uncommon
One Abortion
52%
Two Abortions
28%
Three Abortions
12%
Four or More
Abortions
8%

Part II: Why Do Women Have Abortions?
While there are many reasons and circumstances that may lead a woman or a couple
to choose an abortion, the overwhelming fact is that when a pregnancy is unplanned,
abortion is the likely outcome. Abortions based on rape, incest, life of the mother, or
abnormality of the fetus are uncommon. Reducing the number of unwanted
pregnancies by 10% would eliminate more abortions in three days than would banning
late term abortions over the course of a full year.

Part II, Finding #1
Half of all pregnancies are unplanned; most unplanned pregnancies lead
to abortion.
In America, nearly half of all pregnancies are accidental. When an unplanned
pregnancy occurs, the most likely outcome is abortion.
• For every 100 pregnancies in America, 52 were planned and 48 were unplanned.xx
• Among the 48% of pregnancies that were unintended, the percentage of
abortions to live births is 54% to 46%.xxi

Part II, Finding #2
Very few abortions are performed because of fetal abnormalities, health
of the mother, rape or incest.
Of the 1.3 million abortions in America each year, about 90,000 occur due to the
health of the fetus, mother, or rape or incest.
• 3% cited fetal abnormalities
• 3% cited health
• 1% cited rape or incest.xxii

Part II, Finding #3
There is no single dominant reason that women choose to have an
abortion, but there is one overwhelming factor: the pregnancy was
unplanned.

[Antipas]

Continued:

Part II, Finding #4
When a teenager has an abortion, parents are often a factor in the
decision.
Those espousing parental consent laws as a way to reduce teenage abortions may
be surprised to know that it is not uncommon for the teenager to wish to carry the
pregnancy to term and for the parents to recommend or demand an abortion.
• 30% of minors seeking abortions attributed their decision in part to the fact that
their parents wanted them to have abortions.xxiii
• Upon learning of their daughters’ pregnancies, parents favored abortion over
childbirth by a 4 to 1 ratio.xxiv
• The most common repercussion that a pregnant teen feels after disclosing the
pregnancy to her parents was not being beaten, punished, forced from the home
or even discomfort about living at home. Rather, it is that her parents are
demanding that she have an abortion.xxv
Reasons Women Give for Seeking Abortion
Inadequate finances
22%
"Not ready for the
responsibility"
22%
"Life would be
changed too much"
17%
Fetal abnormalities
3%
Too young and
immature to have a
child
11%
Relationship
problems/unmarried
13%
Health
3%
Rape or incest
1%
Already have enough
children
8%

Part III: When Do Women Have Abortions?
Abortions are typically performed at about the 8th week of gestational age (weeks
since the last menstrual period). Nearly all abortions occur in the first trimester. Thirdtrimester
abortions are exceptionally rare.

Part III, Finding #1
Roughly 9 out of 10 abortions are performed in the first trimester.
• 57.6% of abortions occur within 9 weeks.
• 77.9% occur within 10 weeks.
• 88.1% occur within 12 weeks — the end of the first trimester.
• 0.08% occur after 24 weeks — the end of the second trimester.

Part III, Finding #2
The reason most women give for having an abortion after 16 weeks was
not realizing they were pregnant.
Only 5.8% of all abortions are performed after the 16th week. Women often give
multiple reasons for relatively late abortions, but not realizing they were pregnant was
number one.
• 71% cited not realizing they were pregnant as the reason for having an abortion
after the 16th week.
• 48% cited difficulty in making the arrangements to have an abortion.
• 33% said they were afraid to tell their partner.
• 24% said they needed time to make a decision.
• 8% said they hoped their relationship with their partner would change.
• 2% cited a late diagnosis for fetal abnormality.xxvi

Part III, Finding #3
The most likely person to have a later term abortion is a girl under age 15.
• Nearly 14.7% of all abortions performed on girls under the age of 15 occur after
the 16th week of gestation.
• 8.5% of abortions for older teens occur after 16 weeks.
• Only a tiny percentage of women over 20 have an abortion after the 16th week.xxvii
• The number of later term abortions (abortions after 16 weeks) for teens may have
to do with not knowing or not believing they are pregnant. It could also have to
do with the trauma of telling their parents, deciding whether or not to have an
abortion, finding a location to have an abortion, or navigating parental
notification laws in particular states.

Part IV: Where Do Women Have Abortions?
Abortion rates vary by state, in part due to racial and ethnic backgrounds that seem
to determine abortion rates and in part due to the availability of abortion clinics or
hospitals that perform abortions. Some states have very few abortion providers. Women
in these states often have abortions performed in other states. Cultural influences likely
play a role as well in state abortion rates.

Part IV, Finding #1
Though abortion rates are generally lower in culturally conservative
states, they are still very high.
Women from places like Alabama and North Carolina have fewer abortions than the
national average, but the number and rate of abortions in many of these states is closer
to the national average than one would expect based on public opinion polling and the
behavior of voters. Thus, while some in these states may wish to believe that abortion is
really a Northeast or West Coast phenomenon, it is occurring with regularity almost
everywhere. Xxviii

Part IV, Finding #2
Most abortions occur in the state where the woman lives.
91.3% of all abortions occur in the woman’s home state. Several states stand out as
destinations for non-residents seeking abortions.* They include Kansas, Delaware,
Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Nebraska, Rhode Island, Tennessee, and the District of
Columbia.xxix
* Alaska, California, and New Hampshire do not report the residency of those having abortions.
Abortions per 1,000 Live Births
in Selected Culturally Conservative States
154
343
157 165 165
261
197
226 230
207 203
Alabama
Arkansas
Delaware
Georgia
Indiana
Kansas
Mississippi
Missouri
North Carolina
Pennsylvania
Texas
National
Average
246
• Over half of all abortions in D.C. are performed on out-of-state residents.
• Nearly half of all abortions in Kansas are performed on out-of-state residents.
• Nearly 40% of all abortions in North Dakota are performed on out-of-state
residents.
• Nearly 30% of all abortions in Delaware are performed on out-of-state residents.
• Nearly one in four abortions in Rhode Island are performed on out-of-state
residents.
• Nearly 20% of all abortions in Tennessee and Alabama are performed on out-ofstate
residents.xxx

Part IV, Finding #3
It is unclear whether strict parental consent laws have an impact on teen
abortion rates.
The data on where teens have abortions are scarce, so it is difficult to draw definitive
conclusions about the impact of parental consent/notification laws and out-of-state
teen abortion rates. However, nine of the ten states that attract the most out-of-state
abortions have moderate to strict parental consent laws.
• Of the ten states with the highest rates of out-of-state abortions, only one — D.C.
— has minimal or no parental notification/consent laws.
• Four of the ten — North Dakota, Rhode Island, Tennessee, and Alabama — have
strict parental consent laws.
• Five of the ten — Kansas, Delaware, Colorado, Arkansas, and Nebraska — have
moderate parental notification laws.xxxi