Is Grace Conferred Through Jesus Name Baptism?

[Sabby]

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, that the light will come on when I flip the light switch, that a hot stove will burn me, or if the gas guage on my truck reads empty that I'll be walking soon if I don't get a fill up. Whether I get out of bed at sunrise, turn on the light, decline to touch a hot stove or get gas in my vehicle only shows that I can RESPOND (a verb) to the cognitive function of belief. Baptism is a response to faith in Jesus Christ and all HE entails. You make the decades old mistake of putting some mystical quality to water baptism that doesn't exist.
It ain't holy water and it can't save you, confer more grace to you, or regenerate you. Of course you believe it, and if by doing it somehow satisfies your soterialogical points, more power to you.
The old black hymn "I know it was the blood" is totally right on!
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," Revelation 1:5
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" Revelation 7:14

In an earlier post you said something about understanding Paul's opinion. It really sounds to me like you are quoting talking points. JMO

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2
There's nothing about baptism here.

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1 Corinthians 1:17
Paul makes a distinction-if you'll read the context-between baptism and the preached gospel. Paul CLEARLY explains in verse 18 that gospel he preached:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18
I respect your right to disagree, even though I think you are clearly wrong in YOUR opinion. It's ok, it's not too late to relearn (think Apollos and Aquila and Priscillla)!

You are equating faith/belief in the finished work of Jesus Christ as: faith + works = grace.

Just so you know, I'll say again for the record. I am "oneness", I preach repentance and baptism in Jesus' name. I preach living for God and the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ. I hold the same apostolic positions as many of our forebears; there are MANY apostolics that hold the position I have presented here.
I'll add again that the differences between us and the ones leading to the merger of the PAJC and PCI aren't so many that we can't join arm and arm and battle for Jesus together.
I asked on another thread about Apostolic Unity and this discussion has only illustrated why there is such a lack of it.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Shingledecker

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, that the light will come on when I flip the light switch, that a hot stove will burn me, or if the gas guage on my truck reads empty that I'll be walking soon if I don't get a fill up. Whether I get out of bed at sunrise, turn on the light, decline to touch a hot stove or get gas in my vehicle only shows that I can RESPOND (a verb) to the cognitive function of belief. Baptism is a response to faith in Jesus Christ and all HE entails. You make the decades old mistake of putting some mystical quality to water baptism that doesn't exist.
It ain't holy water and it can't save you, confer more grace to you, or regenerate you. Of course you believe it, and if by doing it somehow satisfies your soterialogical points, more power to you.
The old black hymn "I know it was the blood" is totally right on!
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," Revelation 1:5
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" Revelation 7:14

In an earlier post you said something about understanding Paul's opinion. It really sounds to me like you are quoting talking points. JMO

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2
There's nothing about baptism here.

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1 Corinthians 1:17
Paul makes a distinction-if you'll read the context-between baptism and the preached gospel. Paul CLEARLY explains in verse 18 that gospel he preached:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18
I respect your right to disagree, even though I think you are clearly wrong in YOUR opinion. It's ok, it's not too late to relearn (think Apollos and Aquila and Priscillla)!

You are equating faith/belief in the finished work of Jesus Christ as: faith + works = grace.

Just so you know, I'll say again for the record. I am "oneness", I preach repentance and baptism in Jesus' name. I preach living for God and the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ. I hold the same apostolic positions as many of our forebears; there are MANY apostolics that hold the position I have presented here.
I'll add again that the differences between us and the ones leading to the merger of the PAJC and PCI aren't so many that we can't join arm and arm and battle for Jesus together.
I asked on another thread about Apostolic Unity and this discussion has only illustrated why there is such a lack of it.

And you have the right to be wrong that nothing happens in Baptism. My Bible tells me different and so does the entire history of the church up until the Protestant reformation where that doctrine of baptism is only the answer to faith originated. I understand you are oneness and I agree we can have unity but the bible cannot amen you saying nothing happens in baptism and neither would peter or Paul.

The verses you quote does not override Paul's teaching of Baptism in Romans 6 and Galatians 3. The context of that verse in Corinthians was unity, but that had division based ON WHO baptized them. Paul never taught baptism was not required to put one into Christ's death.

I fail to see how baptism is a work. please elaborate

You are right, I can relearn and I have over and over again. I'm not your typical apostolic who has accepted every doctrine in the UPCI. on the contrary I've questioned every doctrine and found the HG confirming the truth that what they teach concerning baptism is right and true. We must be born of the water and of the Spirit. We must be baptized to fulfill the example of christ and to go into his death.

Everyone on this forum, be ware of the doctrine that nothing happens in baptism. Its false.

The mistake many apostolics are making is saying the blood is applied at baptism. Thats nonsense in light of scripture. The blood is applied at repentance and a soul is justified before God at repentence. However in order to DIE to your sin, you must be buried with Jesus.



about Paul

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2
There's nothing about baptism here.

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1 Corinthians 1:17
Paul makes a distinction-if you'll read the context-between baptism and the preached gospel. Paul CLEARLY explains in verse 18 that gospel he preached:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Already comented on why Paul said these things.. please read the chapter but notice the bold. The people he is talking to are already baptized and already saved. Therefore he is not telling us to go around telling those who are lost, once you believe you are going to heaven!

[Sam]

The Apostle Peter said that baptism is not a literal washing away of filth/sin but is the response of a good conscience toward God.

Because we are saved, our sins have been washed away, and our conscience is clear with God we submit to the ritual of baptism as a public display of what has happened within and as a declaration that the old person is dead, so we are burying him, are now risen to walk in new life.

A couple of alternate readings to 1 Peter 3:21 are:

"in baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the resurrection of Christ"
and
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you through the resurrection"

P.S. not every time the word "baptism" is found in the Bible does it have to the ritual of water baptism.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

The Apostle Peter said that baptism is not a literal washing away of filth/sin but is the response of a good conscience toward God.

Because we are saved, our sins have been washed away, and our conscience is clear with God we submit to the ritual of baptism as a public display of what has happened within and as a declaration that the old person is dead, so we are burying him, are now risen to walk in new life.

A couple of alternate readings to 1 Peter 3:21 are:

"in baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the resurrection of Christ"
and
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you through the resurrection"

P.S. not every time the word "baptism" is found in the Bible does it have to the ritual of water baptism.

because we are saved.. What are we saved from? Sin? Hell? Again your definition of being saved is too broad. Salvation is a process, the bible teaches this.

Here are some verses on baptism

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

.Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?


1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

All of the above verses point to the same thing aside from 1 Cor. 12:13 where it distinguishes the baptism of water and the baptism of the Spirit.

Baptism is how we are put into Christ's death. Repentance is how we are forgiven and Christ's blood is applied to us.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

And you have the right to be wrong that nothing happens in Baptism. My Bible tells me different and so does the entire history of the church up until the Protestant reformation where that doctrine of baptism is only the answer to faith originated. I understand you are oneness and I agree we can have unity but the bible cannot amen you saying nothing happens in baptism and neither would peter or Paul.

The verses you quote does not override Paul's teaching of Baptism in Romans 6 and Galatians 3. The context of that verse in Corinthians was unity, but that had division based ON WHO baptized them. Paul never taught baptism was not required to put one into Christ's death.

I fail to see how baptism is a work. please elaborate

You are right, I can relearn and I have over and over again. I'm not your typical apostolic who has accepted every doctrine in the UPCI. on the contrary I've questioned every doctrine and found the HG confirming the truth that what they teach concerning baptism is right and true. We must be born of the water and of the Spirit. We must be baptized to fulfill the example of christ and to go into his death.

Everyone on this forum, be ware of the doctrine that nothing happens in baptism. Its false.

The mistake many apostolics are making is saying the blood is applied at baptism. Thats nonsense in light of scripture. The blood is applied at repentance and a soul is justified before God at repentence. However in order to DIE to your sin, you must be buried with Jesus.



about Paul

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2
There's nothing about baptism here.

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1 Corinthians 1:17
Paul makes a distinction-if you'll read the context-between baptism and the preached gospel. Paul CLEARLY explains in verse 18 that gospel he preached:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Already comented on why Paul said these things.. please read the chapter but notice the bold. The people he is talking to are already baptized and already saved. Therefore he is not telling us to go around telling those who are lost, once you believe you are going to heaven!

Romans 6, "even so we also should walk in newness of life"
Galatians 3, entire chapter is a refutation of works.
You asked me to elaborate on baptism, something I'd done for a few days now, but you don't get it.
As far as your comment,
"Everyone on this forum, be ware of the doctrine that nothing happens in baptism. Its false." Are you the pope or something? You must have some SERIOUS credentials.
Any student of the Bible understands the Jewish writing method of synthetic parallelisms, where the thought presented in a statement is reinforced or clarified by the second. Some great examples can be found in Psalms and the Song. Another example is found in John chapter 3. I do NOT follow the water/spirit born again theory presented by A.D. Urshan in that water baptism represents some kind of spiritual cleansing and is absolutely necessary for forgiveness of sins. If Urshan understood parallelisms he obviously did not think it applied to John 3.
What doth the scripture say?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5
Ok, what does Jesus mean by water? He explains it completely in the verse following:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
His comparison to the word water is clarified with the word flesh and makes a clear distinction between one birth and the other. One is born once, water/flesh, and then one is born again not of water, but of the spirit. Consider how Jesus further explained the mystery of being born again to a well-meaning but spiritually blind Nicodemus,
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8
There is no mention of water in this statement. If water baptism was indeed part of the second birth Jesus would have said, "so is everyone that is born of the water and the Spirit". He didn't need to, because he had already made clear to Nicodemus what he meant in saying, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh."

If you don't understand parallelisms then I'd suggest some time studying what they are.

I could agree to disagree agreeably but right now you aren't capable of responding in kind. Your responses to someone disagreeing always fall along the lines that you know the truth and anyone not believing like YOU is wrong. A better spirit would help.

[Sabby]

I don't want to sound harsh and apologize if it comes across that way.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sabby

Romans 6, "even so we also should walk in newness of life"
Galatians 3, entire chapter is a refutation of works.
You asked me to elaborate on baptism, something I'd done for a few days now, but you don't get it.
As far as your comment,
"Everyone on this forum, be ware of the doctrine that nothing happens in baptism. Its false." Are you the pope or something? You must have some SERIOUS credentials.
Any student of the Bible understands the Jewish writing method of synthetic parallelisms, where the thought presented in a statement is reinforced or clarified by the second. Some great examples can be found in Psalms and the Song. Another example is found in John chapter 3. I do NOT follow the water/spirit born again theory presented by A.D. Urshan in that water baptism represents some kind of spiritual cleansing and is absolutely necessary for forgiveness of sins. If Urshan understood parallelisms he obviously did not think it applied to John 3.
What doth the scripture say?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5
Ok, what does Jesus mean by water? He explains it completely in the verse following:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
His comparison to the word water is clarified with the word flesh and makes a clear distinction between one birth and the other. One is born once, water/flesh, and then one is born again not of water, but of the spirit. Consider how Jesus further explained the mystery of being born again to a well-meaning but spiritually blind Nicodemus,
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8
There is no mention of water in this statement. If water baptism was indeed part of the second birth Jesus would have said, "so is everyone that is born of the water and the Spirit". He didn't need to, because he had already made clear to Nicodemus what he meant in saying, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh."

If you don't understand parallelisms then I'd suggest some time studying what they are.

I could agree to disagree agreeably but right now you aren't capable of responding in kind. Your responses to someone disagreeing always fall along the lines that you know the truth and anyone not believing like YOU is wrong. A better spirit would help.

Just wanted to add to your great comentary, the rest of Jesus coversation with Nicodemus, which by the way everyone seems to forget is part of the same converstion.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

context, context what everyone seems to want to forget in todays study of the word. We need to get back to simple expository study instead of this subject study that is so popular today.