Vaccine Mandate is First Purge.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I suppose I could go on but this discussion really isn't about national military policy from a theonomic perspective, it is about forgiveness and the connection(s) to repentance.

Speaking of which, Jedi, did you find the verses which command unconditional unilateral forgiveness as a moral obligation or even as an admirable virtue?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Does God forgive without any of us repenting?

Note: on another thread I believe there is a discussion about "a sin not unto death" which talked about our intercessory role for our brothers in which it may be that we can pray for them if we see them commit a sin in ignorance. So let's keep that in mind.

But here is teaching on forgiveness:

Luke 13:2-5 KJV
And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? [3] I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. [4] Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? [5] I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Here Jesus says repentance is REQUIRED to escape destruction. Thus, repentance is a condition of forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 18:23-35 KJV
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. [24] And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. [25] But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. [26] The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. [27] Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. [28] But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. [29] And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. [30] And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. [31] So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. [32] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: [33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? [34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. [35] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Here forgiveness is tied to repentance in both cases. This teaching comes immediately after this:

Matthew 18:21-22 KJV
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? [22] Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Jesus taught us to forgive, and His illustration involved forgiving the repentant. Another account of the same teaching reveals more detail:

Luke 17:3-4 KJV
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. [4] And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Notice we are to "take heed" about this: we are to rebuke the one who does us wrong, and IF HE REPENT we are to forgive him, regardless of how repetitive things may seem to get.

If forgiveness were unconditional, then everybody would automatically be saved. God conditions forgiveness upon repentance. We aren't nicer than Jesus. Forgiveness in Scripture is always tied to repentance in some fashion. That is to say, I can't find a teaching in Scripture where God requires anyone to forgive the unrepentant.

Perhaps you can show us where God forgives us without us repenting? Or where God commands us to forgive unilaterally and unconditionally?

Just in case it got overlooked...

[Esaias]

A lot of the problem stems from the fact that people don't really know what "forgiveness" actually is.

When a person trespasses against you, they cause an injury to you, either to you personally and physically, to your honour and reputation, or to your property. In any event, when a trespass occurs, restitution is due. Thus a trespass involves a DEBT. When you trespass against someone, you OWE them something. Not just an apology, but something equivalent to the damage that was caused. As well as any specified fines or "mulcts" that are added judicially for the purpose of disincentivizing future trespassing.

So when you "forgive" someone, you are waiving the debt they owe. You are writing it off ("blotting it out"). It has nothing whatsoever to do with personal feelings, nor does it require "forgetting that something happened" in the sense of not taking steps to prevent future trespasses. It DOES require "forgetting" in the sense that you cannot reinstate the debt for arbitrary reasons (however, forgiveness CAN be "cancelled" according to Scripture, under certain conditions).

Again, this is about debts accrued due to damage done to a person or their property, not about emotional states. I can't find any Scripture that requires any particular emotional state (feeling) as a moral imperative. Feelings are fickle and deceptive. God commands CHOICES and ACTIONS.

[Esaias]

"(however, forgiveness CAN be "cancelled" according to Scripture, under certain conditions)"

I can already see people's eyes bulging out upon reading this, so let me provide some Scripture to ease everybody's worried minds:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
(Eze 18:20-32)

Here, if a righteous person turns from righteousness to sin, their righteousness is not going to be remembered. So if a person repents, and then falls back into sin, their previous repentance and forgiveness will not be remembered. It will in effect be cancelled. We see Jesus illustrating and affirming this same exact principle:

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
(Mat 18:23-35)

Here the servant was forgiven, but refused to forgive others. So his previous forgiveness was literally cancelled and the debt came due. "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you..."

[Esaias]

AND BY THE WAY...

If someone trespasses against you, and you just unilaterally and unconditionally forgive them, GOOD FOR YOU! That is certainly your choice. If you are owed a debt, it is technically yours (your property) and you do with your property what you want. No harm, no foul.

But, you cannot demand others forgive upon conditions NOT stated in Scripture. The servant is not above his Master. Even if you are magnanimous, and forgive everybody of everything without exception for all time, you still aren't "nicer than Jesus". You get no brownie points.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

A lot of the problem stems from the fact that people don't really know what "forgiveness" actually is.

When a person trespasses against you, they cause an injury to you, either to you personally and physically, to your honour and reputation, or to your property. In any event, when a trespass occurs, restitution is due. Thus a trespass involves a DEBT. When you trespass against someone, you OWE them something. Not just an apology, but something equivalent to the damage that was caused. As well as any specified fines or "mulcts" that are added judicially for the purpose of disincentivizing future trespassing.

So when you "forgive" someone, you are waiving the debt they owe. You are writing it off ("blotting it out"). It has nothing whatsoever to do with personal feelings, nor does it require "forgetting that something happened" in the sense of not taking steps to prevent future trespasses. It DOES require "forgetting" in the sense that you cannot reinstate the debt for arbitrary reasons (however, forgiveness CAN be "cancelled" according to Scripture, under certain conditions).

Again, this is about debts accrued due to damage done to a person or their property, not about emotional states. I can't find any Scripture that requires any particular emotional state (feeling) as a moral imperative. Feelings are fickle and deceptive. God commands CHOICES and ACTIONS.

Elaborating just a bit for clarity's sake...

A lot of people think forgiveness and unforgiveness has to do with emotional feelings. So they think that "forgiving" someone means they change their feeling toward that someone from negative to positive. Again, this is not what forgiveness is about. Forgiveness is about letting go of requiring a debt. Thus, if you forgive someone, you no longer think of them as OWING you something "for what they did".

Also, a lot of people think that forgiving someone means you treat them as if they had never done whatever it was they did. THAT IS NOT CORRECT. It is not "forgive and forget" as most people think of it. Consider: a person visits your house, and steals your money. So you decide they shall not come into your house in the future. Some would say that until you invite them to come back into your house, and until you let them come over, and until they can wander your house WITHOUT you "wondering what they are doing" or being concerned about them possibly stealing something, then (they say) you have not actually forgiven them.

Nonsense.

Suppose you were a fornicator. And you repent, and become a saint. God has forgiven you. Does God now just forget that you may have an issue with certain environments, certain situations, around certain people? No! Will God not teach you to AVOID TEMPTATION? Quit flirting with the girl at the checkout line? Of course He does. He knows your weakness. He has forgotten your sin as far as the debt you owed, he no longer holds it against you. But He doesn't ignore your nature and tendencies.

So likewise, the former thief can be forgiven, but doesn't get to just roam unattended through your house. In fact, letting him do so might be a case of you putting a stumbling block and occassion of offense in front of him. Which means YOU are now guilty of sin. Trying to be "nicer than Jesus" will send you to hell.

[coksiw]

… wow, I was missing some interesting conversations over here

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Just in case it got overlooked...

Not avoiding the convo...trust me...Im at work. You're giving me lots to chew on.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Not avoiding the convo...trust me...Im at work. You're giving me lots to chew on.

[jediwill83]

Im obviously outclassed in this discussion and I guess Im having to re evaluate some things. I feel like you've just handed me a license to be what Id used to consider a complete jerk...but theres so many facets to all of this.


Maybe not to you but there is to me....because if this is legit...Im looking at some major changes I need to make not only for the sake of myself but for others.


It would seem that the unconditional forgiveness is just a way to be taken advantage of...kinda like Rules For Radicals...I dunno...I need sleep.


Remind me not to get on your bad side. 😂


Please forgive me if I have.