Witch of Endor

[Amanah]

Esaias posted:

"This involves an issue of hermeneutics: do we use singular, obscure passages to direct or even subvert the rest of the whole tenor of Scripture? Or do we allow the whole tenor of Scripture to direct our interpretation of singular and obscure passages?

Personally, I find the "it was really Samuel" view raises a LOT of questions and conflicts - even WITH the common and popular view that people don't really die they just become ghosts somewhere. And when two doctrines or interpretations are compared, and one creates contradictions with itself and the majority of Scripture, and the other doesn't but instead fits with everything else, the choice - for me anyway - is clear."

Well said!

[Evang.Benincasa]

It’s like this, the Bible writer said it was Samuel. Not a demon, not a lying spirit. Not much you can do with a verse that doesn’t play around and comes out and tells you numerous times that the awoken dead guy has a name, and it is Samuel. Hey, I would love to read the parchment which says she brought up a demon, angel, or lying spirit who feigned itself as Samuel. But I don’t have it available. Samuel was brought up for one sole purpose, and one sole purpose only. No other instance in the Bible do we see a recreation of something similar. Saul needed to have Samuel tag him for the last time. It would have made no sense for a demon to do the job, and a lying spirit seemingly told the truth that night. Saul had become the enemy of God, and God put Saul on silent. Samuel was awoken to tell Saul that Saul was finished.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It’s like this, the Bible writer said it was Samuel. Not a demon, not a lying spirit. Not much you can do with a verse that doesn’t play around and comes out and tells you numerous times that the awoken dead guy has a name, and it is Samuel. Hey, I would love to read the parchment which says she brought up a demon, angel, or lying spirit who feigned itself as Samuel. But I don’t have it available. Samuel was brought up for one sole purpose, and one sole purpose only. No other instance in the Bible do we see a recreation of something similar. Saul needed to have Samuel tag him for the last time. It would have made no sense for a demon to do the job, and a lying spirit seemingly told the truth that night. Saul had become the enemy of God, and God put Saul on silent. Samuel was awoken to tell Saul that Saul was finished.

You got a really good point. Do you think the Narrator was there witnessing what happened or just wrote exactly what witnesses testified?

Sometimes I wonder if the problem is the translations, and our modern understanding of the ancient writings and their styles.

What if it wasn’t Samuel per se but a vision God gave the witch? If it is a vision do you think the writer would have written all he wrote much different?
After all, Saul asks the witch “what do you see” while he couldn’t see it, typical of a vision.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

You got a really good point. Do you think the Narrator was there witnessing what happened or just wrote exactly what witnesses testified?

Sometimes I wonder if the problem is the translations, and our modern understanding of the ancient writings and their styles.

What if it wasn’t Samuel per se but a vision God gave the witch? If it is a vision do you think the writer would have written all he wrote much different?
After all, Saul asks the witch “what do you see” while he couldn’t see it, typical of a vision.

Exactly, it’s not like everyone saw this apparition. It was only seen by the witch.
Focusing on her getting the unsuspecting fright by having Samuel in her radar. Therefore she deduces because it was Samuel the guy in disguise must be the king of Israel.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Exactly, it’s not like everyone saw this apparition. It was only seen by the witch.
Focusing on her getting the unsuspecting fright by having Samuel in her radar. Therefore she deduces because it was Samuel the guy in disguise must be the king of Israel.

Interesting that one can take a WITCH at her literal word but not the speaker of this minor phrase:

And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

Interesting that one can take a WITCH at her literal word but not the speaker of this minor phrase:

And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

How is the above a minor phrase? Could you clarify?

[Esaias]

A few questions:

1. If it was really Samuel, what body does he have? He appears as "an old man in a robe/mantle", and speaks, so obviously he has a body. So what body is it? The resurrection hadn't occurred between his death and his appearance at Endor, so it can't be the resurrection body. So, what body did he have?

2. How come nobody saw him except the witch? Was he hiding in the pantry? Or was she having a vision?

3. If she was having a vision, who gave it to her? The familiar spirit? Or God?

4. If she was having a vision, then doesn't that mean it was a vision, and not the actual dead Samuel back for one more round?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

Interesting that one can take a WITCH at her literal word but not the speaker of this minor phrase:

And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Or a prophet who identified the Son as the Everlasting Father.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

A few questions:

1. If it was really Samuel, what body does he have? He appears as "an old man in a robe/mantle", and speaks, so obviously he has a body. So what body is it? The resurrection hadn't occurred between his death and his appearance at Endor, so it can't be the resurrection body. So, what body did he have?

2. How come nobody saw him except the witch? Was he hiding in the pantry? Or was she having a vision?

3. If she was having a vision, who gave it to her? The familiar spirit? Or God?

4. If she was having a vision, then doesn't that mean it was a vision, and not the actual dead Samuel back for one more round?

I believe it was a vision given by God to the witch to rebuke Saul. No actual Samuel spirit involved.
The Hebrew behind “hath a familiar spirit”, is better translated as “who is a necromancer”. The context speaks of a “profession” or “ability”, not of a condition as in “who is possessed”.

[Monterrey]

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

Interesting that one can take a WITCH at her literal word but not the speaker of this minor phrase:

And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

That's right, you're a trinitarian now. I forgot.