Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father? - Page 29

votivesoul · #**281** 10-31-2014, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This passage has always puzzled me, if meant literally.

The term "Son of Man" is a self-referencing term the Lord used frequently, and essentially means "this human being", since "son of man" is but an idiom for the same.

So, if the Lord meant us to understand this verse literally, then it would appear that there are two versions of the man Christ Jesus:

One on earth, a human being, fully present, speaking this verse to Nicodemus, and another in heaven, likewise a human being, fully present there, but not speaking this verse to Nicodemus.

Anyone care to help?

Second, did Jesus ever ascend to heaven prior to saying these words to Nicodemus, in order to say that the one who descended from heaven is the one who first ascended there?

Again, if meant literally, it makes no sense to me.

Sean · #**282** 10-31-2014, 02:41 PM

Keep in mind Jesus also prayed:

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

If you are right about oneness with God making Jesus God then does this mean Jesus prayed that we would be God just like he is? QUOTE AQUILA

Somebody needs to answer this mans' question here. This is serious.
__________________

Sean · #**283** 10-31-2014, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This passage has always puzzled me, if meant literally.

The term "Son of Man" is a self-referencing term the Lord used frequently, and essentially means "this human being", since "son of man" is but an idiom for the same.

So, if the Lord meant us to understand this verse literally, then it would appear that there are two versions of the man Christ Jesus:

One on earth, a human being, fully present, speaking this verse to Nicodemus, and another in heaven, likewise a human being, fully present there, but not speaking this verse to Nicodemus.

Anyone care to help?

Try this bro....

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.(according to the plan of God, Jesus was considered the first to resurrect)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.(first to resurrect in the PLAN of God)

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Jesus was actually resurrected before Lazarus etc. (In the THOUGHTS of God). He, in the thoughts of God was even crucified from the foundations of the world. etc.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.(calls those things that have not happened as though it already happened)

Michael The Disciple · #**284** 10-31-2014, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This passage has always puzzled me, if meant literally.

The term "Son of Man" is a self-referencing term the Lord used frequently, and essentially means "this human being", since "son of man" is but an idiom for the same.

So, if the Lord meant us to understand this verse literally, then it would appear that there are two versions of the man Christ Jesus:

One on earth, a human being, fully present, speaking this verse to Nicodemus, and another in heaven, likewise a human being, fully present there, but not speaking this verse to Nicodemus.

Anyone care to help?

The version of the Son of man in Heaven is the Eternal Father. He is referring to himself but using the terms interchangeably. This happens a lot in the Bible.

Here the Spirit of God and of Christ are used interchangeably.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom. 8:9

Paul speaks of God and Christ. Yet he seems to be insinuating they are the same.

Another example might be when Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM". In his deity thats who he was. So when he said the Son of man was still in Heaven it is my belief he is referring to himself and just doesnt try to at that time elaborate on it.

Another example:

Jesus says to the Church in Thyatira: Rev. 2:18

18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Here he tells them he is the Son of God. A few verses later he describes himself as the Spirit.

29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

So to us it can be confusing at times. Sometimes Jesus speak strictly as God or man. Others more broadly yet it is all him. For his own reasons thats the way he has chosen.

Sean · #**285** 10-31-2014, 02:59 PM

Aaron, try to absorb that!

Michael The Disciple · #**286** 10-31-2014, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Second, did Jesus ever ascend to heaven prior to saying these words to Nicodemus, in order to say that the one who descended from heaven is the one who first ascended there?

Again, if meant literally, it makes no sense to me.

I was just thinking on that last night myself.

Michael The Disciple · #**287** 10-31-2014, 07:24 PM

Well Jesus did ascend into Heaven in the Old Testament. He came down various times then. He came and walked with Adam and Eve in the garden. He appeared to Abe with two angels. He wrestled with Jacob and appeared to Moses face to face.

So in THAT context he had ascended and descended. Other than that?

Sean · #**288** 10-31-2014, 07:26 PM

He wasnt born yet bro.

Sean · #**289** 10-31-2014, 07:36 PM

I took this from another thread...

Brother, this proves that Jesus was totally human and was glorified as God AFTER the resurrection. Thanks for the passage bro., It just revealed something in the passage I had not quite noticed.
(if Jesus, being a man, was deity on earth prior to his ascention, he was an UNglorified God)

But this he spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those
believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was
not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

glo·ri·fied
ˈɡlôrəˌfīd/
adjective
1.
(especially of something or someone ordinary or unexceptional) represented in such a way as to appear more elevated or special.
"I did the paperwork and was basically a glorified secretary"
2.
(in religious contexts) made glorious.
"the transformed and glorified Jesus"

Praxeas · #**290** 10-31-2014, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Prax, go back and read what I said carefully. Then get back to me.

I asked "Is He who died the same He who Eternally existed as God? " and you said YES

I then asked "Or is HE who died someone OTHER than God?" and you said yes.

That is a contradiction. You are in essence saying They are the same Person. They are NOT the same Person

They are the same HE, they are not the same He.

That violates the law of non-contradiction.