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Originally Posted by Aquila
This is where many would disagree somewhat with you. We see two people in the Song of Solomon fantasizing about one another prior to marriage. I challenge you to find a person who didn’t fantasize about the girl (or boy) they fell in love with prior to marriage. It’s normal. It’s healthy. It’s human. I’d say that if you didn’t have a fantasy about the person you’d like to marry or at least find them “attractive” in that way, there’s something wrong. When comes to this sort of thing, there’s nothing wrong normal human thoughts and feelings.
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I would say that finding one's future spouse to be attractive, and lusting after them, are two different things. Even finding them sexually attractive, and lusting after them, are two different things. It is possible to find them attractive and NOT lust after them.
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Let’s look at what Jesus actually said…Matthew 5:28
{5:28} But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Jesus isn’t talking about your normal fantasy or interest in the opposite gender. Jesus is talking about a person who purposefully looks upon a woman for the express purpose of lusting after her. A purpose full of true desire to exploit an individual for personal pleasure. We see this in the world when a man looks upon a woman he’s going to try to pick up in a bar. He’s not a 15 year old kid in math class fantasizing about Betty Mae, the cutest girl in the school. This man is a predator. Jesus’ point is that adultery has already taking place in a man’s heart the moment he looks upon a woman with the express purpose of using her.
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I disagree that this commandment is addressed only to "predators". It is addressed to
every man, and woman, for that matter. Jesus' commandment was simply this: don't lust! Don't fantasize about someone else unless it is your spouse. And when I say fantasize, I mean allow one's thoughts to entertain the idea of having sexual relations with someone other than their spouse. James said:
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren". (
James 1:14-16)
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You’d have Christ’s words condemn the majority of adolescent kids who have healthy feelings and interests.
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You're calling lust "healthy"? Because when an individual (regardless of their age) fantasizes about having sexual relations- of any kind- with someone who is not their spouse, that's lust. Lust results in sin (even if not acted upon), and sin results in spiritual death.
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Yes, this is common even among happily married individuals.
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But that does not make it right in God's eyes.
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It can be argued that a “fantasy”, while unwise and can lead to sin is just a fantasy. If the man has no desire to truly commit an act of sin it can hardly be said that he has sinned. In addition, Jesus didn’t say that lusting is adultery… he said it was adultery of the heart. The seed from which adultery springs.
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You've completely obviated the thrust of Jesus' commandment. He was specifically going beyond the physical act itself to deal with the intent of the heart. If one lusts in their heart over someone who is not their spouse, then Jesus says they've committed adultery. The act takes place in the heart, but Jesus considered it on the same level as one who commits the physical act.
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Else we’d have to argue that any man who ever had a fantasy about a woman to whom he wasn’t married by sentenced to death. We’d also say that a wife would be warranted to issue a divorce decree if her husband gazed on the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition too long in the grocery store.
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Hence the seriousness of the condition of the heart. Here's what Scripture also has to say about the heart:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (
Jer 17:9)
"And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." (
Mark 7:20-23)
To "defile" is to make unholy and unclean. If it causes one to be unholy, this then causes them to break communion with God. It is sin. Paul includes these in his list (
Gal 5) of the lusts of the flesh, but they all begin in the heart, and once conceived in the heart, it is the same in God's eyes as having committed the physical act. That's why God commands us to be holy, as he is holy. We are commanded to bring EVERY thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ (
2Cor 10:5). We are not to be conformed to this world and its way of thinking, but are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds to prove what is that good, and perfect, and acceptable will of God (Ro 12:1-2).
Scripture also says that as a man thinks in his heart, so is he (
Pro 23:7).
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What do you suggest when all the prayer and fasting hasn’t helped them? They are human Dave. Adolescent human beings. My concern is that you’d heap condemnation on them for something that is perfectly normal.
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I would question whether true prayer and fasting has even taken place. Fasting specifically brings our body under subjection to the will of the Spirit. Is the individual even baptized with the Holy Ghost? Has intercessory prayer and fasting been offered by the pastor and the church on behalf of this individual. Paul said God will make a way of escape in temptation (
1Cor 10:13). The writer of Hebrews said:
"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (
Heb 4:15-16)
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If my son found himself on the verge of being convinced by you that God hated him as an adulterer just because he had a fantasy about Betty Mae… you and I would have words my friend. And I’d gladly tell you about the grace of God and how you’re destroying kids.
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But this is a strawman argument, for I never said God hated those who succumb to sin. The whole point of what I've been saying has been centered around the verses I just quoted above: if we'll turn to God during temptation, he will give us "grace to help in time of need". So my argument is ALL about the grace of God, and how it gives us the ability to remain pure and holy before him.
Destroying kids? The promises and commandments of Scripture never destroy, they always liberate and bring new life in Christ Jesus: the liberty to live free from sin and bondage to the carnality of the flesh.
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I’ve talked to kids struggling in this area and upon realizing that God still loves them and that the issue isn’t a major problem… it subsides. They grow out of it. It happens less frequently. You make it a forbidden fruit that they begin craving and then hide
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No,
Scripture makes self-gratification a forbidden fruit. And when I point individuals to the truths and promises of Scripture, they are able to place their trust in their Savior, who can then give them his power to overcome temptation, lust, and sin, so that they can live holy lives before him.
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I’m glad I’m open enough that when my son starts having issues here we can talk and I can navigate him responsibly and introduce him to the grace of God.
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See above.
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Hmmm….so you’re one of those 1% who never engaged in what you call “carnal behavior” of any kind. I commend you. But I think you have deeper issues that you’re not telling us about. I’ve seen this sort of thing over and over and over. You’re no different. I’ll pray for you.
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So now you're judging me? Is the concept of a Christian living an overcoming, victorious life in Christ Jesus that foreign to you? I'm sorry to see that your last comments have degraded into an
argumentum ad hominem. As such, they are serving as a Red Herring to detract from the actual argument, namely, that Scripture condemns carnal behavior such as self-gratification. God specifically calls us to a life of holiness and purity of heart and actions.
You see, my friend, for some Christians, it's not about how much "liberty" they have in Christ as far as how much they can do and get away with without it being technically "sin", etc. Paul said we are not to use our liberty as an occasion for the flesh, or as a cloak for sin. In fact, for some it's not about them at all. It's about Christ. It's about living in such a way that the power and anointing of the Holy Ghost overflows in their life. It's about possessing the mind of Christ, so that they may speak the words of Christ, and they may work the works of Christ. It's about being set apart as a holy vessel in the hands of God. They are vessels and instruments of his anointing. And if being in that place means not exercising all the "liberties" we may or may not have, then that's okay. Because these seek a greater purpose, and it's not about self gratification at all. It's about gratifying Jesus Christ. "Not my will, but thine be done."
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