Modesty as described by the General Youth Division

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

And sorry I don't make sense to you.

It's one thing for someone to disagree with you, and another for them to not even get the opportunity because they don't understand or can't make sense of what you're saying. I suppose I'll try harder.

I think you make perfect sense.

PO just tires of the rhetoric around here at times.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

And in fairness, I'm being general since the "Apostolic Identity" crusade is quite general.

General, in what way, Jeff?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by DAII

General, in what way, Jeff?

Meaning, it's being propogated by a voice of a general organization. It's not a fringe group of Apos making a fuss, but is at the top of the list of the largest Oneness group. I'd say it's pretty general.

My comment was in response to PO, who said I was being general about "distinction-obsessed Apos"

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

And sorry I don't make sense to you.

It's one thing for someone to disagree with you, and another for them to not even get the opportunity because they don't understand or can't make sense of what you're saying. I suppose I'll try harder.

I'm simply saying that Stew always makes perfect sense to me every time I read something he writes. I enjoy his posts probably more than anyone. I don't normally involve myself in the "top poster list", but today I feel very inclined to compliment him. He never comes across as critical or condescending. I've pushed him a little in the political arena, but he remains the cool cat. (lol)

I was in sales for so long that I think I will always engage in a more controversial way. And I probably was very suited for sales because I am competitive by nature. It's just the nature of the beast. I'm so used to myself, I don't try to change. Anyway, at least, I don't have the inclination to try. I just hope you will like me anyway. (lol)

I apologize for coming across as accusing you of not making sense. I don't agree with you on everything, but I have never thought you to be not sensible in outlining your thoughts. That's different than agreeing, BTW.

Originally Posted by rgcraig

PO just tires of the rhetoric around here at times.

Yes, I do. I think it may be a personality issue. My sister and I were talking the other day about a person in our family that is very draining. Normally, I shut a person out or off when I am feeling drained. It reminds me of the log out button. (lol)

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Meaning, it's being propogated by a voice of a general organization. It's not a fringe group of Apos making a fuss, but is at the top of the list of the largest Oneness group. I'd say it's pretty general.

My comment was in response to PO, who said I was being general about "distinction-obsessed Apos"

ah ... yes.

I am going to post a timeline today or tomorrow showing how AI has been used in DKB's and others vernacular over time ... various of his official correspondences are replete with the term ...

starting with his book, The Apostolic Life, published in 2006, and now with this book presently being pushed hard by PPH since the last GC ....

and especially since the General Board AI directive of the January 2008 winter meetings .... in response the WWPF fallout, Chester Wright's concerns over "emerging theology" and complaints about the 2007 NAYC conference.

The propagandized AI agenda is seeing an upgrade with the new administration as DKB seeks to make it part of the brand consciousness nationwide.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Meaning, it's being propogated by a voice of a general organization. It's not a fringe group of Apos making a fuss, but is at the top of the list of the largest Oneness group. I'd say it's pretty general.

My comment was in response to PO, who said I was being general about "distinction-obsessed Apos"

Aside from an Identity session at the Youth function, that isn't something the churches around here focus on, Jeffrey. Just like Stew said. You should listen to him, since you are apparently not listening to me. (lol) I believe someone also reported the enormous numbers of youth in attendance and I remember Steinway commenting on that. So, apparently, something is working.

The best I can do is follow the direction of God in my life. I cant' look to the right or to the left. When I am clothes shopping, I don't think, "Now, how can I best display an "Apostolic Identity"? (lol) I would doubt very many women do that. The first thing I do is scan the racks for a sale and make my way. Knowing the markups in retail, I'm not going to pay full price if I don't have to. I then look for my personal style (modest), color and then exam the quality of fabric.

Aside from the clothing issue, I believe we mull over things in our minds making comparisons to some degree. So, I mull over that I know people in and out of the organization. I know that character and personality is going to be a major player in a person's expression involving their personal life, in the lives of those around them and in their relationship with God. His Spirit changes us in my ways, but it doesn't change our basic personality.

What I found is this - everything boils down to the desire of the heart. If a person is not affiliated with the organization, we are speaking of, and partakes in fornication, they are no different than the person in the organization that partakes in adultry. It is a heart issue and has nothing to do with which church produces the best Mission statement. No organization can save us from our heart. It is always a personal choice and decision. KWIM? It's just life and I think - birds of a feather flock together. If someone wants to be Conservative, they will flock to a Conservative Church. If someone wants a more liberal setting, that is where they will go.

It's not that hard to figure out.

Personally, as long as my church is sensitive to His Spirit and we are a praying church, that is the foundation of growing and maturing. Everything must start with sincere prayer. And if people are sincere in what they are doing, I'm not going to sweat it.

[DAII]

Maybe Edward Anglin was right ... we are seeing a movement seeking to eliminate Pentecostal from the identity ...

For example, with JR Ensey calling such men like Goss and Seymour as finders and not founders.

I am starting to think some would rather strike Pentecostal from the vernacular and replace the identity with their revised, exclusive view of "Apostolic".

Ironically enough, this was debated at the merger when some of the PAJC guys wanted the name to be United Apostolic Church, if I recall, before men like Morgan brokered an agreeement.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Aside from an Identity session at the Youth function, that isn't something the churches around here focus on, Jeffrey. Just like Stew said. You should listen to him, since you are apparently not listening to me. (lol) I believe someone also reported the enormous numbers of youth in attendance and I remember Steinway commenting on that. So, apparently, something is working.

The best I can do is follow the direction of God in my life. I cant' look to the right or to the left. When I am clothes shopping, I don't think, "Now, how can I best display an "Apostolic Identity"? (lol) Don't discount the power of subconscious --- and I've been with Apo women "I love this, but the sleeves are just a hair above the elbow... shoot! I wish they were a centimeter longer... maybe I can stretch the material down!" I would doubt very many women do that. I like to think I get around socially. I'm not sure with you, but I've seen this on a pretty large scale The first thing I do is scan the racks for a sale and make my way. Knowing the markups in retail, I'm not going to pay full price if I don't have to. I then look for my personal style (modest), color and then exam the quality of fabric.

Aside from the clothing issue, I believe we mull over things in our minds making comparisons to some degree. So, I mull over that I know people in and out of the organization. I know that character and personality is going to be a major player in a person's expression involving their personal life, in the lives of those around them and in their relationship with God. His Spirit changes us in my ways, but it doesn't change our basic personality.

What I found is this - everything boils down to the desire of the heart. If a person is not affiliated with the organization, we are speaking of, and partakes in fornication, they are no different than the person in the organization that partakes in adultry. It is a heart issue and has nothing to do with which church produces the best Mission statement. No organization can save us from our heart. It is always a personal choice and decision. KWIM? It's just life and I think - birds of a feather flock together. If someone wants to be Conservative, they will flock to a Conservative Church. If someone wants a more liberal setting, that is where they will go.

It's not that hard to figure out. What isn't? What are we talking about????

Personally, as long as my church is sensitive to His Spirit and we are a praying church, that is the foundation of growing and maturing. Everything must start with sincere prayer. And if people are sincere in what they are doing, I'm not going to sweat it.

Perhaps you should read more of TStew, since you admire him for being cool. Your back-handed compliments, for example, are foreign to TStew. I much more enjoy his posts than yours. We have something in common!

Apostolic Identity, no matter how it personally affects you, PO, is very much a reality being propogated. You can stick your head in the sand and ignore it, tell me your thought processes when you go shopping, but it won't change the fact that Pentecost is heavily driven by image, outward appearance and insistence on unbiblical uniform standards of dress. That's what our comments are in response to. Like you said, "it's not that hard to figure out."

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by DAII

Maybe Edward Anglis was right ... we are seeing a movement seeking to eliminate Pentecostal from the identity ...

For example, with JR Ensey calling such men like Goss and Seymour as finders and not founders.

I am starting to think some would rather strike Pentecostal from the vernacular and replace the identity with their revised, exclusive view of "Apostolic".

Ironically enough, this was debated at the merger when some of the PAJC guys wanted the name to be United Apostolic Church, if I recall, before men like Morgan brokered an agreeement.

Re them striking "Pentecostal" from their vernacular: I actually hope so -- because I love what Pentecostalism has brought back and restored to Christianity in the last 100 years.

[Nitehawk013]

What's wrong with it being propogated?

The problem I see is not with the AI group. I see the greater problem being the disingenuous people here who seem to think the only dinstinction pushed is in "dress codes". You act as though the only thing being emphasized in any "standards" church is dress codes. You act as though conservatives wave only one flag, "dress this way or you are none of ours".

That is a fraud I suspect many of you know. Men like DKB and others, I would bet, are far more focussed on preaching and teaching Acts 2:38, the Oneness and other primary doctrines and leaving standards as things of secondary importance. Yes, they obvioulsy bring them up at conferences and camp meetings when they have greater assemblies of the flock, but I imagine it is far more typical for them to rarely mention the issue at church from the pulpit.

Our AI is many things. Standards are simply the first one that is noticed when we are looked at. And some of us are still pretty darn proud of it.