Isaiah 3 and jewelry...

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by SeekingOne

I am not exactly a Bible scholar, but it seems that when jewelry is used in a negative fashion, it isn't the jewelry itself. In other words, the scripture doesn't say the jewelry is evil, but how people use it. Sort of like money, it isn't evil but it can certainly turn someone away from God. Just because Jesus instructed the "rich man" to go and sell all that he had, doesn't mean everyone should do that.

Again, I am not comfortable wearing jewelry so I am not defending because I want to wear it. I just don't see anything against jewelry, but on the "spirit" behind some that wear it. Just as I see a negative "spirit" behind some that love money instead of just using money.

If a person couldn't live without their jewelry, money, make-up, whatever, then I would have them question why? Don't seek an outward image, instead seek a deep relationship with Jesus and let THAT image shine through.

As far as jewelry is concerned, my friends wearing jewelry to be pretty is no different than "standards" women wearing a dress or poofy hair to be pretty. If the dress, jewelry, poofy hair etc. draw such attention that it defines them, then MAYBE it is a problem. I wouldn't bother even thinking about it unless it were my child though! LOL I am not the judge of the world.

Motive is huge. jewelry can be sensual, but it's not the jewelry but the persons heart or manner it's worn.

[Truthseeker]

I find it interesting there's over 600 or so commands in the OT and not one mentions jewelry.

No law no transgression? Sin comes by law.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

THE Maximillian?

Nope... this one:

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by rdp

As usual, you do not respond to my arguments regarding Ezek. 23:40, Jer. 4:30, etc. Hmmm, God also uses jewlery as a figure of harlotry. Why would he use something that he approves of in such a horrible sense? Cuts both ways Jeffrey! Now what, back to the text, which repeatedly condemns the literal ornamentation of His people...in both the OT & NT.

Sorry Charlie, try again!

Jeremiah 4:30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

Did God just say that crimson clothes, ornaments of gold, and makeup made Israel fair? You really should read your prooftexts better rdp... You just listed a verse that ties figurative jewelry to making Israel fair. The only ties to harlotry in this passage are Israel's motive for making herself fair.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

LOL Do you have a Debate text book next to you and try to confine someone's argument to one of your cute little categories. You are about as phony as they come, my friend.

A one-sided argument, without presenting the other side? WTH????? You've done that on every post on this thread

Again, you make no sense in your response to Mike. I mean, do you actually think your making sense? This would go a whole lot smoother if you did... then we could actually go somewhere with the discussion.

I see, you can make very unchristian innuendo's [head where it shouldn't be], call me "phony," etc.....then correct ME on my responses???? Sounds to me like someone can dish it out, but.... Toooo funny.

You folks need to understand that I do not function according to your whims. I'm text driven & could care less about your silly little ad hominem attacks [need me to explain that one too Jeffrey??]. I maen for a people who apparently cannot comprehend the phrase "not with gold," you sure aren't operating too "smooth" yourselves.

Sorry Jeffrey, try again, this time w/ Scripture [novel idea].

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

You've all but stated that people are "in rebellion" over the "wedding ring" issue. You use God's word to beat people down. You spend more time straining gnats on AFF than you have anything else.

God is a lavish prodigal savior yet you sound like a one-tracked, stuck on legalism miser.

You want courage? Consider that you may be wrong? I dare you. Consider it. Then I'll know you have courage. Otherwise, it's pure hubris.

Wrong again Jeffrey! In fact, I sincerely pray all of the time that if I'm wrong, I want God to show me. I'm well aware that if I teach others wrong, I'll give an account of it.

But, I just cannot erase the Word of God regarding women preachers, jewelry, etc. His Word is what will judge me...not AFF!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So does that mean by Ezekiel 16's time jewelry was okay? By the way, where does the bible say God deemed jewelry something His people could not handle whereas they could beforehand? You are beginning to concoct doctrines as you go, now.



Wrong. I know the bible noted jewelry with harlotry, showing I ignore nothing of your argument. But in all your words, you refuse to answer me. I have explanations. Jewelry for SOME MANNERS is wrong, but not for all, and that means you cannot paint everyone who wears jewelry as a harlot, especially since the bible does not relate your distinction that claims TIME changed God's mind about the issue. lol What about Jesus' time when he mentioned the prodigal and a ring?

It's like you will argue for anti-jewelry stances no matter what.



Show me, then, why God used jewelry if we were meant to not use it alt all. You are hedging.

IOW< stick your head in the sand, and you mean you refuse to actually answer me.



With no more answers than today?

Ho-Hum...here we go again. Mike, would you have aproblem if I showed up Sun. morn. to preach in your church wearing nose rings, decked in jewels, fine linen, badger's skins etc.? If yes, then drop the age old argument from Ezek. 16...since God will not "use sinful analogies." Then you should have no problem w/ my wearing these articles! If no, then you bigger problems than liberalism!

My original point was, & still is, that the 2 foremost NT apostles state in very clear terms that the wearing of gold, pearls, [i.e., jewelry] should not be practiced. Paul explicitly states "not with gold...." I mean really, what in the world can you fella's not understand about that? Ever heard of "Destructive Criticisms" vs. "Constructive Criticisms"??

Even in the OT God repeatedly demonstrates His displeasure w/ it ["put OFF (not ON) your ornaments...", Ex.33, Is. 3, Hosea 2, Jer. 4, Ezek.23, Gen. 35,etc.]. Yet, you fella's just plod along like it's not there, & when you do address it, you have your eraser out "making the Word of God of no effect."

Sorry Charlie...ain't buying it!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

RDP considers himself an exegete, a scholar even, yet uses scriptures like Jer 4:30 (of course, not a pericope, but a specific verse. ahem) to prove that God prohibits jewlery!

What are you doing,
you who have been plundered?
Why do you dress up in beautiful clothing
and put on gold jewelry?
Why do you brighten your eyes with mascara?
Your primping will do you no good!
The allies who were your lovers
despise you and seek to kill you.

He is clearly describing what the audience at that time would recognize as harlotry. Not one thing in particular, but an entire portrait! Furthermore, his focus in this pericope is not hookers at all! Israel, the figurative woman here, is batting her eyes at lovers who despise her and hate her. God is jealous. He is hurting. We may as well add in the verse "batting the eyes, wearing perfume, making kissy-lips, twirling your hair." But only a legalistic maniac would proof-text a verse like this to use it as a "see, there it is, God prohibits jewelry" verse. Just amazes me.

I see, you attack me off of your muddied perceptions [strawman fallacy], & expect me to defend it?? I've NEVER referred to myself as a "scholar, or exegete." YOU supplied that, not me Jeffrey. Thus, you assume what you cannot prove!

Regarding Jer. 4, what has happenned to your theory about figurative verses & sinful symbols over in Ezek. 16? Hmmm, you don't apply the same criteria here do you? And part of what the audience would recognize as harlotry was make-up & jewelry! Tks. for the help!

No, I do not think that every woman who wears make-up & jewelry is a harlot. My point was that figurative verses can cut either way [for about the 3rd time now]. But we do see God repeatedly condemning the wearing of jewelry by His people. Are you guys denying that:________?

Remember, the OT was physical in nature, while the NT is spiritual in nature. Thus, the idolatry in the OT, which was repeatedly connected to jewelry, is now done in the heart/spiritually, which is apparently still connected to jewelry from the way you guys fight it so hard!

Still waiting on you to deal w/ I Tim. 2:9, "N-O-T with gold...".

[rdp]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Jeremiah 4:30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

Did God just say that crimson clothes, ornaments of gold, and makeup made Israel fair? You really should read your prooftexts better rdp... You just listed a verse that ties figurative jewelry to making Israel fair. The only ties to harlotry in this passage are Israel's motive for making herself fair.

Yes, my point exactly, what motivates anyone today to paint their face, adorn themselves in jewels, etc.? Besides, regardless the motivation, the Bible still instructs the NT church "NOT with gold...". Try again!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by rdp

Ho-Hum...here we go again. Mike, would you have aproblem if I showed up Sun. morn. to preach in your church wearing nose rings, decked in jewels, fine linen, badger's skins etc.? If yes, then drop the age old argument from Ezek. 16...since God will not "use sinful analogies." Then you should have no problem w/ my wearing these articles! If no, then you bigger problems than liberalism!

You really cannot answer Ezekiel 16, can you? Just jabs.

The point is that IN THAT TIME there was nothing WRONG with nose rings and badger's skins, and these things were innocent enough THAT GOD USED THEIR IMAGERY TO EXPLAIN HIS LOVE FOR HIS PEOPLE.

You cannot even reason with this adequately to realize that you are making God into a nutcase who should not have used nose rings and badger's skins to describe how he cherished Jerusalem, since in OUR DAY these things would be ridiculous.

The issue is that God condoned jewelry in some uses and not in others -- period. The only way anyone can argue that is that they scrape for straws to hang onto to not change their doctrinal stance. I have not seen one single reasonable statement you made about the entire issue so far.

GOD CONDONED JEWELRY in Ezekiel 16. You cannot remove that one from the bible. In Jer 4:30, God did not CASTIGATE wearing of jewelry, but rather foretold judgment on a nation who would try to regain respect and other lovers in futility.

Jer 4:30 KJV And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

The gist is "How will you be able to help yourself after you are spoiled?" And then he listed all the attempts the nation might accomplish to help itself. He spoke of looking noble and wealthy and rich with jewelry and trying to gain self dignity. Her lovers are mentioned which indicates attempts at luring through lust the attention of others. But though harlots wore jewelry, others who were not harlots did as well. Otherwise it is insane to see God using jewelry for His bride in symbolism. It would make Him appear as lusting after harlots. You need to, therefore, watch what you say about this issue.

I used to agree with you. But passages like Ezekiel 16 poked at me again and again, and I had to admit I was taught wrong. IN SOME CASES -- those of excess -- jewelry is linked to harlotry. But just because a harlot also combs her hair and uses a bed, does that mean it is wrong for other women to comb their hair and have beds for purposes other than harlotry? The point is EXCESS is the error. Uses of things can be error. Focus upon those things is the error. Moderation of those same things frees one from any inkling of harlotry. CONTEXT MEANS EVERYTHING!

And you better get off the internet, because some people use internet for porn. But I suppose TV is more evil than the internet although internet has driven more men into porn since the inception of the net long after TV touched a relatively MINOR area of sin by comparison. Consistency thou art a rare jewel when it comes to men standing for doctrines that make no lick of sense when closely analyzed!

Eze 23:40 KJV And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments,

Another example where harlotry is associated with jewelry IN SPECIFIC USES OF IT involving EXCESS and intention to adulterate. This no more convinces anyone that ALL FORMS OF jewelry are likewise intended and cannot be implemented outside of such excesses and intentions. OTHERWISE EZEKIEL 16 WOULD NOT BE IN THE BIBLE! Why can you not see that?

My original point was, & still is, that the 2 foremost NT apostles state in very clear terms that the wearing of gold, pearls, [i.e., jewelry] should not be practiced.

No it does not say that. It says the FOCUS and the ADORNMENT which in the Greek is implying KOSMOS, WORLD -- one's WORLD -- should not be these things. IN other words, wear it, but do not make it the focus of what one thinks is the greatest attribute one could have, as though a meek spirit is nothing in contrast. THAT is what it is saying. How do I know? The rest of the bible CONDONES IT. And the only way you can stand reasonably on your position is to concoct some make-believe scripture that says God allowed it at first, but later realized man could not handle it. And meanwhile NO SUCH VERSE EXISTS. And you misread the apostles' words to make them contradict the rest of the bible.

explicitly states "not with gold...." I mean really, what in the world can you fella's not understand about that?

It also says not "the wearing of apparel." How many times have people told you that? The obvious explanation is speaking of apparel as one's whole world and focus of desire in order to promote self. But wearing apparel is innocent in and of itself otherwise. You do not get the idea of moderation and putting focus where focus should be.

According to you, we should be naked to be consistent with your use of the phrases used in those verses.

Ever heard of "Destructive Criticisms" vs. "Constructive Criticisms"??

You drop labels for manners of argument like a pendantic nerd drops complicated phraseology, or an attention-seeker drops famous names.

Even in the OT God repeatedly demonstrates His displeasure w/ it ["put OFF (not ON) your ornaments...", Ex.33, Is. 3, Hosea 2, Jer. 4, Ezek.23, Gen. 35,etc.].

And IT ALSO SHOWS GOD'S APPROVAL OF IT as in Ezekiel 16 and Rebekka's case with Isaac, as well as Daniel accepting a gold necklace and the prodigal son being given a golden ring.

We have to look AT ALL the instances, and not only look at the negative ones, and THEN make a reasonable assessment. You gloss over all jewelry and make God a whoremonger like you do with every other man who does not mind his wife wearing jewelry..

Yet, you fella's just plod along like it's not there, & when you do address it,

I explained it fully! You are the one who cannot answer Ezekiel 16 LIKE IT IS NOT THERE. You plod along like passage after passage is not there, as though the mention of a harlots bed means no one should ever sleep in a bed when used for other reasons than harlotry, simply because the bible stated harlots used beds.

you have your eraser out "making the Word of God of no effect."

Then cut out Ezekiel 16. Chop it out.

Sorry Charlie...ain't buying it!

No one can make you agree with reason. And if you're that stuck on a doctrine that no amount of reason can sway you, then you actually are committing spiritual fornication against God for loving a man-made error of doctrine more than His precious truth.

Think, man.