Back to this post. This is VASTLY different from your opening post.
Here you clearly state that repentance appropreates salvation. which is the same as saying that it appropreates remission.
I dont agree but it is cogent and represents a side of the debate but it looks NOTING like the opening post, nor several other posts you have made here defending your OP.
Your Opening Post was just a blatant attack on people you dont agree with but in your haste to attack, you failed to even live up to your own doctrine.
silly at best.
oh, dont be nice. it isnt necessary.
Same as salvation? What conversation are you in, Ferd? Why the viciousness? Seriously?
Incoherent babbling.
This was his "blatant attacking" post?
Quote:
Given that all our sin was reckoned to Christ.
Given that all sin reckoned to Christ was remitted prior to the resurrection, else he would not have been raised from the dead.
1) What further remission do we obtain in the waters of baptism which did not happen on the Cross?
2) Does the teaching of baptismal sin remission declare a disbelief in the sin remitting work of the Cross?
Nice try. How about context. You are just making stuff up... turn on your ears and turn down the attitude
Just dealt with that my friend. it doesnt even look like his first post.
THAT is my point. the first post doesnt even reflect what you and Adino believe.
It was just a jumping off point to play kick the baptizers.
Socialite, I can live with and enjoy a discussion about when remission is appropreated. But I wont do that in a thread that starts off with nonsense that the poster doesnt even believe!
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Just dealt with that my friend. it doesnt even look like his first post.
THAT is my point. the first post doesnt even reflect what you and Adino believe.
It was just a jumping off point to play kick the baptizers.
Socialite, I can live with and enjoy a discussion about when remission is appropreated. But I wont do that in a thread that starts off with nonsense that the poster doesnt even believe!
Of course it does. He's fleshed it out through the course of discussion. He's talking about remission of sin. He believes it happened at the Cross. We are beneficiaries of his power over death and sin by believing in Him.
I guess I don't understand your ire. Nor have I read anything from Adino in this post that I thought was nonsense. Can you explain?
Same as salvation? What conversation are you in, Ferd? Why the viciousness? Seriously?
Incoherent babbling.
This was his "blatant attacking" post?
why? Adino wanted to play kick the baptizer. I kicked back. what gives?
Look, at the heart here I suspect that Adino, you, me and most Oneness Pentecostals agree on what the cross represents. We all agree that Jesus paid the price for our sin.
We also agree that before repenance a man is lost.
None of us believe that an unprentant person who just believes there is a god is saved.
Where we disagree is where remission of sin is appropreated (applied to the individual life).
That is a decent discussion and worthy of AFF.
but this nonsense that is the opening post does not reflect that at all. It suggests that remission of sin has NO connection to the actions of the individual.
Adino (Unwittingly) said something he doesnt believe. that being that Jesus saved all of humanity regardless of the individuals actions/life etc.
It was done for the purpose of showing how stupid us baptizers are.
in my humble opinion, it backfired.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Of course it does. He's fleshed it out through the course of discussion. He's talking about remission of sin. He believes it happened at the Cross. We are beneficiaries of his power over death and sin by believing in Him.
I guess I don't understand your ire. Nor have I read anything from Adino in this post that I thought was nonsense. Can you explain?
im ready to move on.
he may have brought it forward in the thread but the opening post is nothing that any of us believe.
on a certain level, Every single Oneness Pentecostal I know agrees with the basic statement. On another level, not a single christian outside of the unitarians believe what he said.
its frustrating that this gets a free pass.
PS, I knew brother Yadon years ago. He is a wonderful guy. He had a huge impact on my family...
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
he may have brought it forward in the thread but the opening post is nothing that any of us believe.
on a certain level, Every single Oneness Pentecostal I know agrees with the basic statement. On another level, not a single christian outside of the unitarians believe what he said.
its frustrating that this gets a free pass.
PS, I knew brother Yadon years ago. He is a wonderful guy. He had a huge impact on my family...
He didn't get a free pass. If I remember correctly I questioned him about being a universalist seeing as he said ALL sins were forgiven. I asked him that because I didn't see why God would be sending totally forgiven men to hell. He then clarified that unbelief would send a man to hell and called it blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (a sin). I then went on to spend quite some time hounding him over the fact that one sin was not forgiven on the cross and that because of this it might be more reasonable to just view all sins as being forgiven at the same time instead of all sins except one being forgiven at the same time. However, I since thought about it and his explanation really is the only one that makes the cross do more than cause an opportunity for forgiveness His explanation is the only one that makes the cross do more than cause potential forgiveness. His explanation is the only one that makes the cross cause ACTUAL forgiveness.
So if you want to find fault then you won't find it in the consistency of Adino's doctrine (at least not in the places you're looking because those places have done been examined)... instead the only place you will find fault is in Adino's use of "ALL" in relation to forgiveness of sins which isn't quite true since there is ONE exception. However, he since clarified so I don't think we can hold that against him anymore.
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You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
He didn't get a free pass. If I remember correctly I questioned him about being a universalist seeing as he said ALL sins were forgiven. I asked him that because I didn't see why God would be sending totally forgiven men to hell. He then clarified that unbelief would send a man to hell and called it blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (a sin). I then went on to spend quite some time hounding him over the fact that one sin was not forgiven on the cross and that because of this it might be more reasonable to just view all sins as being forgiven at the same time instead of all sins except one being forgiven at the same time. However, I since thought about it and his explanation really is the only one that makes the cross do more than cause an opportunity for forgiveness His explanation is the only one that makes the cross do more than cause potential forgiveness. His explanation is the only one that makes the cross cause ACTUAL forgiveness.
So if you want to find fault then you won't find it in the consistency of Adino's doctrine (at least not in the places you're looking because those places have done been examined)... instead the only place you will find fault is in Adino's use of "ALL" in relation to forgiveness of sins which isn't quite true since there is ONE exception. However, he since clarified so I don't think we can hold that against him anymore.
Also Prax questioned him even more than me.
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
Forgiveness is an act of God outside of us having nothing to do with anything we do. It stands as a historic reality whether we accept it or not. We do not repent in order to get God to forgive us. We do not get baptized in order to get God to forgive us. God forgave us 2000 years ago and nothing can be done to change that reality.
When Christ rose from the dead it declared to the world that God's wrath had been appeased in regard to sin. The resurrection declared the historic forgiveness of God.
We do not 'appropriate' the forgiveness wrought by Christ's sacrifice. We hear of it and trust in it.
The command to repent is a command to turn back to God. One can only turn back to God (i.e., repent) THROUGH faith in the risen Christ. One can only turn back to God by trusting in the fact that Christ, 2000 years ago, removed that which kept us separated from God. We can return to fellowship with God because Christ's death resulted in the remission of our sins before God. Having obtained forgiveness of our sins Christ was brought back to life and now sits on the right hand of God forever declaring God's historic forgiveness of our sins.
To believe in the risen Christ is to believe that his sacrifice effected the forgiveness of God 2000 years ago.
If we believe we must do anything in order to get God to forgive us, we reject the forgiveness which happened on the Cross! For if God must forgive us today.... it means he did not forgive us at Calvary. YET, Christ rose from the dead forever declaring the GOOD NEWS that GOD forgave us at Calvary!
Ferd, being forgiven does not save us. We're not saved by God's forgivenes, we're saved by God's life.
Mankind stands forgiven but without life. The historic forgiveness of the Cross made it possible for us to come to Christ for salvation. Salvation is the spiritually dead being brought into spiritual life. Salvation is the spiritually dead being born again into spiritual life. The historic forgiveness of the Cross made it possible for mankind to be granted repentance unto life! He that converts to Christ in repentance has life. He that believes has life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).
Back to work.... catch you all at some later date. God bless!
Forgiveness is an act of God outside of us having nothing to do with anything we do. It stands as a historic reality whether we accept it or not. We do not repent in order to get God to forgive us. We do not get baptized in order to get God to forgive us. God forgave us 2000 years ago and nothing can be done to change that reality.
I, of course, agree with the fact that the work of forgiveness and remission of sins was fully accomplished at the Cross. God is now a work simply to bring human into relationship with Himself.
God has a complete purpose in allowing evil into the human experience. I highly recommend Phillip Yancy's book, "Where is God When it Hurts", which he explores the experience of lepers. Along with Dr. Paul Brand who lived and ministered among lepers as a medical doctor.
Leprosy is a disease that has had much misunderstanding, Dr. Brand discovered that its victims simply have no sense of pain, and as result destroy their bodies because they don't know that they are injuring themselves. Without the pain of this life we would be devoid of understanding.
Example: Rich spoiled children, of which nothing is very required of them, are devoid of any maturity, and their lives are destoryed.
God has placed man in this world to know "good and evil" without which man would have no understanding of God's holiness and righteousness. The scriptures boldly declare that : "...eternal life is to KNOW the living God..." Man will never have LIFE until he KNOWS GOD, it is impossible otherwise, so God has finished the work of redemption, He is now standing at the door of every heart knocking, (though the circumstances of good and evil). "And if any man will HEAR His voice and open the door, HE will come in and dine with him."
Religion sets man against man, and ignores the God that is standing at every heart knocking. He will continue knocking though-out every life and beyond until every man opens the door. Many will go thru incredible "fire" before final opening, but OPEN EVERY MAN WILL, because HE is irresistible.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
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