What's your view on Hell?

[coksiw]

There is so much misunderstanding and false representation here. There is such a poor argumentation sometimes too, and a lot of "because I say so". I would love that those that are responding to me at least show me some verses with an explanation of them, especially the ones that seem to contradict their view.

"It then puts the saved in heaven before the resurrection and the lost in hell before the judgement day."

Luke 23:43 (NKJV) 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Jesus put him in heaven before the resurrection, because Paradise is in Heaven:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV) 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Regarding the putting them in Hades of torment, I recognize we only have the story of Lazarus, but nobody here has provided enough convincing Biblical argument with good hermeneutics to explain away ALL the verses that seem to contradict their view of not existance of a Paradise or a hell for the departed souls.

So it would be appreciated if you continue in a Biblical debate instead of restating what you believe. I'm willing to change my mind if you have enough biblical evidences analyzed with normal language interpretation.

Another one:

"It is rather interesting that most believe “death” is the worst punishment you can face on this earth in a court of law, yet do not believe this about Judgment day in God’s court. Adherents of eternal torture hold such a low view of life, that death is not a punishment for them."

That's a misrepresentation. We believe in death as well but you know that we define death differently. You define it as cease to exists, we define as cease to live. First, you cease to live on this earth, and end up in a prison (Hades) in torment. That is not living, but being dead. Second you cease to live in the second death in an eternal state of destruction. We do not consider that as you are "living". So using your definition to then put it in our mouth and trying to make us look absurd or "how sad" is twisting our words. It is a misrepresentation.


Again, it would be highly appreciated if instead of restating what you believe again and again, please debate with Bible, and sound interpretation, explaining things accordantly. And also make an effort to understand the other side correctly before you go trying to refute them, otherwise the debate become unfruitful. If you can't do both, probably the best approach is that you just watch others do it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Coksiw:

I appreciate your comments and respect the ministry of the UPCI. But, it's my responsibility to search the scripture and stand for bible truth as I learn it regardless of what others think.

Since the reformation, Christianity has been clawing its way back from pagan influences and false doctrines and I'm not sure we line up with Apostolic doctrine in totality even yet.

Although, in my opinion we are closer than most. This is apparent to me by the sweet and beautiful way God meets with us who believe in the oneness of the Godhead and baptism in His precious name.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

There is so much misunderstanding and false representation here. There is such a poor argumentation sometimes too, and a lot of "because I say so". I would love that those that are responding to me at least show me some verses with an explanation of them, especially the ones that seem to contradict their view.

"It then puts the saved in heaven before the resurrection and the lost in hell before the judgement day."

Luke 23:43 (NKJV) 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Jesus put him in heaven before the resurrection, because Paradise is in Heaven:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV) 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Regarding the putting them in Hades of torment,

I recognize we ONLY have the story of Lazarus

, but nobody here has provided enough convincing Biblical argument with good hermeneutics to explain away ALL the verses that seem to contradict their view of not existance of a Paradise or a hell for the departed souls.

So it would be appreciated if you continue in a Biblical debate instead of restating what you believe. I'm willing to change my mind if you have enough biblical evidences analyzed with normal language interpretation.

Another one:

"It is rather interesting that most believe “death” is the worst punishment you can face on this earth in a court of law, yet do not believe this about Judgment day in God’s court. Adherents of eternal torture hold such a low view of life, that death is not a punishment for them."

That's a misrepresentation. We believe in death as well but you know that we define death differently. You define it as cease to exists, we define as cease to live. First, you cease to live on this earth, and end up in a prison (Hades) in torment. That is not living, but being dead. Second you cease to live in the second death in an eternal state of destruction. We do not consider that as you are "living". So using your definition to then put it in our mouth and trying to make us look absurd or "how sad" is twisting our words. It is a misrepresentation.


Again, it would be highly appreciated if instead of restating what you believe again and again, please debate with Bible, and sound interpretation, explaining things accordantly. And also make an effort to understand the other side correctly before you go trying to refute them, otherwise the debate become unfruitful. If you can't do both, probably the best approach is that you just watch others do it.

Esaias is slamming this thread with scripture.

But Corkscrew, it looks like you can't even see your own words refute you.

What's the saying?

There are none so blind who will not see.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Esaias is slamming this thread with scripture.

But Corkscrew, it looks like you can't even see your own words refute you.

What's the saying?

There are none so blind who will not see.

I have had a very good debate with Esaias. He posted many good things and I acknowledged his good points. I have also flooded this thread with Scripture and explanations. Where have you been?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Esaias is slamming this thread with scripture.

But Corkscrew, it looks like you can't even see your own words refute you.

What's the saying?

There are none so blind who will not see.

You just called me the wrong username. You can't even open your mouth without belittling people.

[1 God]

Should Satan, the deceiver of the universe, that destroyed billions of souls, be annihilated or sent to an eternal hell?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Esaias is slamming this thread with scripture.

But Corkscrew, it looks like you can't even see your own words refute you.

What's the saying?

There are none so blind who will not see.

You're right he is. What do you believe? Do you believe in the annihilation of the unjust?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Q- regarding this mainstream upc idea
Is what you say here based upon the idea that, the soul goes back to God who gave it? (I assume it is)

The Bible doesn't actually say that. It says this:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It is the spirit that returns to God. The body goes to the earth, the spirit returns to God. Now check this out:

Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 KJV
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. [21] Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

People and beasts both die, are both mortal, their bodies are both of the dust, and return to dust. But the SPIRIT of the beast returns to the earth, whereas the SPIRIT of the human returns to God. Why? Because the earth is what brought forth the beasts, whereas God brought forth humans.:

Genesis 1:24-27 KJV
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. [25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The animating factor or breath or spirit of life for the beasts came from the earth, whereas for humans it came directly from God. As here:

Genesis 2:7 KJV
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And then what would the same people say when they are at a funeral and they know the guy is this far from saved as one can be, even as an atheist, what they say his soul went back to God that gave it, or it is in a waiting place, or in hell, or what exactly would they say?

For EVERY HUMAN the SPIRIT goes back to God and the body goes back to dust. That is "death". The spirit is the breath of life, it was given by God and returns to God. At resurrection the spirit is reunited with the body, thus a resurrection occurs. The PERSON (or "living soul") is a combination of spirit and flesh, which produces a "soul". In death the two ingredients if you will are separated, and the person is no longer alive. Thus, no longer conscious or active either.

Until resurrection. After the resurrection, there is the Judgment, which is by definition the person's court appearance and trial and sentence and punishment or reward.

Nicodemus argued with the Court on this wise:

John 7:50-51 KJV
Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) [51] Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?

His argument is consistent with God's law and with reason: it is not right to condemn a man before examination and inquiry. That is, before his court trial. So the idea that people are sentenced by God BEFORE they are judged is unbiblical and contradictory. How can a man be judged before he is judged?

And I know this post will generate more questions lol. But there it is in a nutshell.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

I don’t know that just a 2nd death is enough for Adolph hitler.

Ezekiel 33:11 KJV
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Much less would He take pleasure in tormenting anyone with pain just to satisfy some sense of hate and revenge. Death (both physical and the final second death) are sad consequences for sin. Sad, but necessary for the maintenance of righteousness and the government of God. The divine goal is not to inflict pain for the sake of inflicting pain, or out of spite. But to correct what can be corrected, and eliminate what cannot be corrected.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

There is so much misunderstanding and false representation here. There is such a poor argumentation sometimes too, and a lot of "because I say so".

Who said "because I say so"?

I would love that those that are responding to me at least show me some verses with an explanation of them, especially the ones that seem to contradict their view.

Has this not been done? I believe it has. At least from our side. Sean/Renee/or whatever maybe not so much.

"It then puts the saved in heaven before the resurrection and the lost in hell before the judgement day."

Luke 23:43 (NKJV) 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Jesus put him in heaven before the resurrection, because Paradise is in Heaven:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV) 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Actually, Paul didn't say Paradise was in heaven. One person caught up to the third heaven, and another caught up to Paradise. Paul is referring to a common feature in both Jewish and Christian mysticism: the person caught up to other worlds and being given divine revelations (like the story of Enoch in Jewish intertestamental pseudepigrapha). He passes no judgment on such ecstatic experiences other than to basically say "cool and neat, that God blessed such persons with spiritual visions and adventures, but as for me I'm just an apostle suffering for the gospel."

Regarding the putting them in Hades of torment, I recognize we only have the story of Lazarus, but nobody here has provided enough convincing Biblical argument with good hermeneutics to explain away ALL the verses

Nobody has explained the contradictions inherent in a more literal interpretation of the story, though.

that seem to contradict their view of not existance of a Paradise or a hell for the departed souls.

It has already been stated: hades is the place of dead people. Nobody said hades doesn't exist. And Paradise was explained, not as a destination for departed souls, but as the place where eternal life is available. Jesus didn't say Lazarus went to Paradise. And thief was to be with Jesus in Paradise THAT DAY (not the next, or the coming Sunday).

That's a misrepresentation. We believe in death as well but you know that we define death differently. You define it as cease to exists, we define as cease to live.

This is a misrepresentation. The SECOND DEATH is a cessation of existence. Physical death is a cessation of life. The problem is you seem to believe dying or ceasing to live means the person still lives just without the body (which introduces more problems). Which is not really a DEATH but just a change of location for the person. It not JUST the body that dies, but the PERSON.

John 5:28-29 KJV
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Where are all these people? IN THE GRAVES. But your position says the righteous are in Paradise/heaven when they are resurrected??? Jesus said the ones in the graves would hear His summons, not "their bodies will hear". This is an important distinction that I think you are overlooking.