Why Sunday

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Well, seems like you have a bunch of converts to sabbatarianism. I'd like to see testimonies of the claims of everyone who has come to agree with you posted here for us to read! Who will start cooking all their food on Friday for the sabbath from now on? Can I get a witness?

As for me and my house we keep the body, and not the shadow.

I say this not in mockery, for I really am interested in seeing people publicize this change of doctrine for them.

Lol! All I am doing is trying to give a reasoned defense of what I believe is the sound doctrine of the apostolic faith and practice.

Not in mockery? Sounds like a wee bit of mockery in there, to be honest.

It also sounds like you are judging people for obeying the 4th commandment? Doesn't your own position prohibit that?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Brother Blume asked:

We can see this. Here again:

Romans 8:2 KJV
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of the Spirit freed Paul from what? The law of sin (Sabbath breaking included) and death (penalty for breaking God's commandments). The Holy Ghost will set you free from your Sabbath breaking, brother.

Sabbath-breaking is not an issue, as I said, and you keep overlooking, because it's fulfilled in the body that cast those shadows. It does not matter if that's the conclusion you arrive at, because it's not my stance at all.

Romans 8:3-4 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Jesus died so we could STOP SINNING. The law (whether you understand that mean the old covenant, or the commands of God themselves) cannot cause you you to fulfill righteousness. It cannot produce obedience. It can only show us what obedience looks like, what disobedience looks like, and provide penalties for disobedience. It cannot make anyone love God and their neighbor. But Jesus can, through the power of the cross. His death works in us to become NEW people who lovingly obey our Father.

The righteousness of the law is not engaging in the ceremonies of the law. Ceremonies, all of them, under law were shadows, from the passover through to Atonement and the feasts, to circumcision, to visiting natural Jerusalem, and keeping sabbath years for farmlands and gardens. Those ceremonies all were pictures of spiritual counterparts that are involved with a spiritual relationship with Christ.

That includes the 4th commandment just as surely as it does the other ten.

Nope. Not when sabbath day was fulfilled as the body of Christ, speaking of all of the rest that he offers in his priesthood.

Romans 8:5-8 KJV
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who are carnally minded, who walk according to the flesh, who mind the things of the flesh, are those who will not submit to the law of God. They are at odds with God, at odds with His commandments, His ways, His revealed will. They will not submit to His law, they can't. Because they are still bound by sin:

This is where you miss what walking after the flesh means and how it includes serving God in the oldness of the letter where Paul describes one willing to do the Law, and finding he could not do it. Minding the things of the "flesh" is related to indulgence in "carnal" ordinances as well. Walking after the flesh is serving in oldness of the letter. It is doing and experiencing as a result that which Paul described in Romans 7:15-24. And the answer is in verse 25 through Romans 8:1, when Paul wrote that the Spirit of Life in Jesus will not see us die.

Sorry, but Acts 15:20 cannot be added to!

Romans 6:5-7 KJV
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him , that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.

If you have been baptised into Christ's death, then by faith you have been freed from transgressing His commandments (sin is transgression of the law). We must reckon ourselves DEAD TO SIN, including Sabbath breaking:

And refusal to enter the true sabbath Jesus is now what sabbath-breaking means in the new covenant.

Romans 6:11 KJV
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Dead to sin doesn't mean free to continue sinning:

Romans 6:12-18 KJV
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

And we keep sabbath by resting in Christ's rest, the new covenant body of what the sabbath foreshadowed. You're not dealing with someone who says we violate sabbath, brother. You think you are by the repeated error of claiming I advocate sabbath-violation. You're dealing with someoen who says fulfill the shadow of the sabbath!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Lol! All I am doing is trying to give a reasoned defense of what I believe is the sound doctrine of the apostolic faith and practice.

Not in mockery? Sounds like a wee bit of mockery in there, to be honest.

It also sounds like you are judging people for obeying the 4th commandment? Doesn't your own position prohibit that?

I am not judging. How can I be judging when I say what Paul said? God already judged the issue. I just added thoughts that sabbath keepers have to realize if they are to engage in it as you propose we should. Paul said it's weakness of faith, not me.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Well, I never said "the Sabbath day is our rest", so...


If the Holy Ghost gives us rest, then the rest is the ends and the Spirit is the means, which proves they are not the same exact thing.

Rest is peace with God, a condition of being conformed to the will of God, being like Jesus. We come to Jesus and He gives us rest. Meaning He reconciles us to God. Meaning we cease being at war with God through unbelief and disobedience.

Rest is fsr more than that. It is ceasing from efforts to please God through physical actions or lack thereof.

Rest is referred to Hebrews 4 where we come to Jesus, after having noted that the seventh day was when God finished his work at the foundation of the world (Genesis 1-2), showing us that the days of creation were actually pictures of a spiritual journey toward God's image in our lives.

Entering Canaan was connected to resting the seventh day for God, as if we enter God's rest. The works were finished since Genesis, but David said in Psalm that people still had not rested, after millions of sabbath days were experienced.!

The rest of the Holy Ghost is something we do not necessarily enjoy by having the Holy Ghost. It is to get us there, as you suggested, but the destination is far more than you presented.





Enjoying the discussion. Thanks again, all!

[Esaias]

Isaiah 28:9-13 KJV
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. [10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: [11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. [12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. [13] But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

God spoke (that is "the word of the Lord"). But the people would not hear. The stammering lips and foreign language God speaks to His people is not listened to nor obeyed. It is a sign to the unbelieving, in fact.

The whole point of the prophecy is that God's people had erred and departed from God. How? By disobedience. Notice:

Psalm 95:6-11 KJV
O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker. [7] For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, [8] Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: [9] When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. [10] Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: [11] Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Ephraim in Isaiah 28 was repeating the error of their fathers in not believing God and provoking Him to anger through their disobedience. The result? They would not enter the Lord's rest. They would remain at war with God. He tried to tell them, He tells us today through the outpouring of His Holy Ghost:

Isaiah 30:18-21 KJV
And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the Lord is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him. [19] For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee. [20] And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers: [21] And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

What way?

Isaiah 40:1-3 KJV
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. [2] Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. [3] The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord , make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

What did John preach? REPENTANCE, which includes a return to obedience!

Psalm 25:6-14 KJV
Remember, O Lord , thy tender mercies and thy lovingkindnesses; for they have been ever of old. [7] Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O Lord . [8] Good and upright is the Lord : therefore will he teach sinners in the way. [9] The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way. [10] All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies. [11] For thy name's sake, O Lord , pardon mine iniquity; for it is great. [12] What man is he that feareth the Lord ? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. [13] His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth. [14] The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

Jeremiah 6:16 KJV
Thus saith the Lord , Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein .

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Rest is fsr more than that. It is ceasing from efforts to please God through physical actions or lack thereof.

Romans 2:6-11 KJV
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: [7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: [8] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, [9] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; [10] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: [11] For there is no respect of persons with God.

Enjoying the discussion. Thanks again, all!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am not judging. How can I be judging when I say what Paul said? God already judged the issue. I just added thoughts that sabbath keepers have to realize if they are to engage in it as you propose we should. Paul said it's weakness of faith, not me.

Your comment about you and your house keeping the body and not the shadow comes across as you viewing sabbath keepers as less spiritual than yourself. I am not offended, believe me. I don't get upset if someone tells me I am out of the will of God, I just ask for proof and evidence, because I want to be in the will of God.

Sabbath keeping involves doing and not doing certain things that non Sabbath keepers aren't accustomed to. Like not doing chores on that day. It always amuses me when people think Sabbath keeping involves doing a bunch of extra hard work ("bondage!!") or something. It's the opposite, in fact. It's a day of REST, not extra hard slave labour lol.

Preparing for the Sabbath is part of it. It isn't hard to make food in advance (don't people often do that anyway?) nor is it hard to not mow the lawn or go shopping. Well, maybe for some that would be hard.

When we first began obeying the 4th commandment way way back when, it was strange and difficult at first. Because it was so different from what we were used to and how we were raised. But learning, studying God's word, praying, allowing the Holy Ghost to lead and guide, results in a progression and change of a person's whole life and lifestyle. Looking back I see just how chaotic and disorganised my life was before I allowed God to manage my time.

I am certainly not saying Sabbath keeping cures all ills. Anymore than any other Bible commandment. But like with all things God says to do, there are benefits to just trusting and obeying God.

[Esaias]

Did Paul say Sabbath keepers are weak in the faith?

Emphatically NO.

Weak in the faith comes from here:

Romans 4:18-22 KJV
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. [19] And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: [20] He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; [21] And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. [22] And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham was not weak in faith, meaning he fully accepted what God said and acted on it. He obeyed, in fact.

Romans 14:1-2 KJV
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. [2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

The vegetarian is weak in the faith because he is worried about eating something that will defile him. Whether this applies to rabbinical fasting days or to abstaining from animal products produced by gentiles (rabbinically prohibited, by the way, not prohibited by God) or meats offered in sacrifice to idols (or a surefire way to avoid doing such a thing by just going vegetarian), the end result is the same. The weak brother believes if he does these things it will be displeasing to God and the community of faith.

Is it weak in the faith for a Christian to abstain FROM SIN? Hardly.

Romans 14:5 KJV
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike . Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Notice, there is no mention of weakness in this passage. If one were to say well it's parallel to the food one so there is still weakness being discussed? Well, following the parallel from earlier in the chapter, the SECOND one mentioned is weak. In this verse it would be the guy who esteems every day alike who is weak in the faith!

But nevermind, because this isn't about the Sabbath anyway. It is about "doubtful disputations" and there is no doubt about the sanctification of the seventh day as the Sabbath. It is about personal estimation of the value of certain days, not about God's estimation of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is never even mentioned in the chapter.

Romans 14:21 KJV
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Weakness is equated with stumbling and offending. Biblically, stumbling and offending have to do with sinning (transgressing God's commandments, including Sabbath breaking). So making your brother weak is not done by encouraging OBEDIENCE TO GOD, but by encouraging DISOBEDIENCE.

1 Corinthians 8:4-7 KJV
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. [5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) [6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. [7] Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

Faith is not here said to be weak, but the conscience. Those whose conscience is weak are those who do not know that idols are nothing and powerless. Kind of like today people think a Buddha statue has some occultic power in itself. Truth is it is nothing, nothing but a memorial to foolishness, if anything. So some were refusing to eat gentile food because butchers and hosts were sanctifying the animal from which it came to pagan gods, and these believers wanted nothing at all to do with idolatry.

1 Corinthians 8:8-13 KJV
But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. [9] But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. [10] For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; [11] And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? [12] But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. [13] Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Again, we are not to encourage a brother to eat such meat IF that brother believes it is wrong because of the idol connection. But notice:

1 Corinthians 10:18-31 KJV
Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? [19] What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? [20] But I say , that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. [21] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. [22] Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? [23] All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. [24] Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth . [25] Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: [26] For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. [27] If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast , and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. [28] But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: [29] Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? [30] For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? [31] Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

If it is made known that food is offered to idols, we are not to partake because of the idolatry connection. Partaking becomes an act of intentional worship in such a case. So we abstain in such situations.

So that's about it in regard to being weak in the faith. Nothing in scripture suggests Sabbath keeping is a weakness of faith.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

You might ask about Hebrews 8:13:

Hebrews 8:13 (AV)

Brother Avery suggested that I reference this verse concerning the old covenant versus the new. The prevailing opinion is that this reference to the OLD covenant is not referring to the Ten Commandments. I contend that it is.

So let’s parse the verse below. My commentary will be in red. What I would like to focus on is the pronoun “he”.


In that he saith,
A new covenant, he hath made the first old.
Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away

So who is the “he” that’s referenced in this verse? I believe it is God. So if the “he” is God, it must mean that God has made the first covenant old. So since God made the new covenant, and in so doing made the preceding one old, and the old covenant is ready to vanish away, who is responsible for making the old covenant “ready to vanish away “? The answer would be God. So if we resist the vanishing away of the old covenant, would we not be contrary to the will of God? I believe we would!

So the next logical question would be; What is the old covenant?

My opinion is that the old covenant that was ready to vanish away (almost two thousand years ago), was the Ten Commandments.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your comment about you and your house keeping the body and not the shadow comes across as you viewing sabbath keepers as less spiritual than yourself. I am not offended, believe me. I don't get upset if someone tells me I am out of the will of God, I just ask for proof and evidence, because I want to be in the will of God.

Fair enough. But being strong or weak in faith is a reality, and I do believe ther eis weakness of faith in sabbath keeper on that issue when compared to those who claim otherwise. You obviously believe you are more advanced in this issue than I am, or you would not disagree with my stance, on thie issue. But I do claim that's what Paul spoke about by describing those weak in faith, for that is the context, and it's nothing personal. Neither is it anything to brag about, for Paul stated that the more he learned about what was true, the more he realized that he knew nothing. For God to speak to someone about an issue is nothing to boast about. While the legalist is warned to not judge, the enlightened are warned to not despise.

Sabbath keeping involves doing and not doing certain things that non Sabbath keepers aren't accustomed to. Like not doing chores on that day. It always amuses me when people think Sabbath keeping involves doing a bunch of extra hard work ("bondage!!") or something. It's the opposite, in fact. It's a day of REST, not extra hard slave labour lol.

It's not doing, and Paul addressed that in Colossians 2 as part of the touch not, taste not handle not ordinances of the elements of the world, which I know you claim are not what Paul meant by elements of the world.

Preparing for the Sabbath is part of it. It isn't hard to make food in advance (don't people often do that anyway?) nor is it hard to not mow the lawn or go shopping. Well, maybe for some that would be hard.

As I said, someone I know honestly and sincerely set out to do that with twice of much work on a Friday as any other day, so that Saturday's food was all prepared. And it is more work on the sixth. It just is. You work twice as much on the sixth day to do none of the seventh, so far as food is concerned, and other things that must be done before the
seventh day arrives when it cannot be done. Chores. etc. This person told me it was really wracking. They were not engaging in it to argue a point, but to honestly try it. And to think that all of that change and effort is necessary to keep the sabbath, shows quite an effort to change, let alone work twice as much on the sixth day.

When we first began obeying the 4th commandment way way back when, it was strange and difficult at first. Because it was so different from what we were used to and how we were raised. But learning, studying God's word, praying, allowing the Holy Ghost to lead and guide, results in a progression and change of a person's whole life and lifestyle. Looking back I see just how chaotic and disorganised my life was before I allowed God to manage my time.

I am certainly not saying Sabbath keeping cures all ills. Anymore than any other Bible commandment. But like with all things God says to do, there are benefits to just trusting and obeying God.

..if you are right in saying sabbath day is not fulfilled with a spiritual rest instead of the shadow.

But go for it! If that's what you see in the word, do so. I disagree with you on this in very strong terms. But we are not serving each other. We serve God. Blessings!