Standards

[Esaias]

I have found it almost impossible to discuss holiness or biblical standards of sanctification with current or former oneness pentecostals because all they seem universally fixated on men's facial hair, women's makeup/hair/clothing, jewelry, sleeve lengths, TV/movies/music, tobacco, gambling, dancing, and a few other odds and ends. Heart purity, sanctification of the whole person and life, attitude towards others, etc are usually only given lip service.

I NEVER ONCE heard an OP sermon on genuine, scriptural HOLINESS. Heard messages on the holiness dress code and abstention from worldly music and SOME entertainments of course. But no holiness preaching.

I have however read and heard holiness preaching from back in the day (and recently) by preachers who believe in entire sanctification. Vast difference IMO.

[good samaritan]

To me when you dissect the standard and start asking why we do or don't something then it becomes clear if it should be followed or not. Sometimes when it comes to living a holy lifestyle then I want there to be division. I do not want to be like the world. I am not saying that I am right and everyone else is wrong, but come let us reason together. If someone presents a case that something is not expedient for a christian should it have to be written, "thou shalt not" for me to abide.

I understand if standards people teach are pointless things such as washing your hands, but most the standards our church teaches has to do with the relationship with the body. Things such as alcohol, drugs, gambling, pre-marital relationships, modesty and lust, etc.... If people have heard a good case of why something is possibly harmful to their christian walk and they continue, it is God they should worry about judging them instead of me.

[good samaritan]

As far as why should we have standards. We have a thread titled is it a sin to commit suicide? Some things should be self explanatory.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I have found it almost impossible to discuss holiness or biblical standards of sanctification with current or former oneness pentecostals because all they seem universally fixated on men's facial hair, women's makeup/hair/clothing, jewelry, sleeve lengths, TV/movies/music, tobacco, gambling, dancing, and a few other odds and ends. Heart purity, sanctification of the whole person and life, attitude towards others, etc are usually only given lip service.

I NEVER ONCE heard an OP sermon on genuine, scriptural HOLINESS. Heard messages on the holiness dress code and abstention from worldly music and SOME entertainments of course. But no holiness preaching.

I have however read and heard holiness preaching from back in the day (and recently) by preachers who believe in entire sanctification. Vast difference IMO.

I may have heard a "few" messages in my lifetime of almost 40 years in OP churches that focused on inward holiness. However, the recurrent theme almost always was focused on the outer external holiness standard.

My eyes were opened to the fact when studying holiness one time to see where holiness and clothing were taught together in scripture, and I came up empty. What I did find was that holiness was always mentioned in regards to our relationship with the Lord, or issues of the heart.

When holiness and clothing became synonymous with salvation, that was when the road swerved off the cliff, in my opinion. I pray that it gets back on track.

Sadly though... too many have thrown out the holiness teaching, and modesty too. It seems there is no balance, but a hard line one way or the other. You cannot have true holiness of heart without modest dress, a modest lifestyle, and a submitted meek spirit to the Lord. But I have seen many cast off the OP dress code and run to the "liberal" side of the road, throwing off all decorum and modesty, which is saddening as well.

I agree with Esaias - holiness must be entire sanctification, not just a dress code. It must begin with the inner man, and once the inner man is cleaned up, the outer man will reflect what has happened on the inside. The focus of holiness teaching needs to focus on the heart first, and then the rest will get itself in line with the Word.

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

No problem with churches having a certain protocol for those in leadership to follow, but when it is tied into salvation, it is then it becomes a problem.

Somebody has a clue here.

[Esphes45]

The bible says Work out your own salvation. You should have a personal standard. No one should dictate to you a standard that you should live by. One pastor I listen to now does a great job at this. Never beating you with his personal (likes and dislikes) opinions but giving you suggestions to increase your walk with God.

Salvation is an individual thing. I can't live holy for anyone but myself.


Now if the church would agree to this then maybe we could start the discussion on how to come to the unity of the faith. Standards, pride, arrogance is what is separating the church.

[Fionn mac Cumh]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I may have heard a "few" messages in my lifetime of almost 40 years in OP churches that focused on inward holiness. However, the recurrent theme almost always was focused on the outer external holiness standard.

My eyes were opened to the fact when studying holiness one time to see where holiness and clothing were taught together in scripture, and I came up empty. What I did find was that holiness was always mentioned in regards to our relationship with the Lord, or issues of the heart.

When holiness and clothing became synonymous with salvation, that was when the road swerved off the cliff, in my opinion. I pray that it gets back on track.

Sadly though... too many have thrown out the holiness teaching, and modesty too. It seems there is no balance, but a hard line one way or the other. You cannot have true holiness of heart without modest dress, a modest lifestyle, and a submitted meek spirit to the Lord. But I have seen many cast off the OP dress code and run to the "liberal" side of the road, throwing off all decorum and modesty, which is saddening as well.

I agree with Esaias - holiness must be entire sanctification, not just a dress code. It must begin with the inner man, and once the inner man is cleaned up, the outer man will reflect what has happened on the inside. The focus of holiness teaching needs to focus on the heart first, and then the rest will get itself in line with the Word.

Preach this. My word tells me there is one lord and one FAITH. If standards are essential for salvation, why is it I can go to 20 different churches and find 20 different standard sets based on whatever the pastors preference is? I am all for modesty. I am not for you thinking you are holier than me because you cover your forearms and I dont. Real holiness comes from within. Some of the most evil people I have ever met in the church never showed an inch of skin other than their hands.

[shazeep]

yup

Originally Posted by Esphes45

Now if the church would agree to this then maybe we could start the discussion on how to come to the unity of the faith.

i wouldn't worry--those in the faith are already in unity on these matters.

[2theX]

Your right:
Holiness does start from within.
And there are those that appear holy but are ravenous wolves.
So what does short sleeves do a person better than long?
Selah. ...if our hearts were truly on the things if God,
then why would I want to show my flesh to another?
When the wild possessed man whom jesus healed from devils was cleansed from demons,
He then was "clothed"and in his right mind.
Just saying,

[2theX]

So if there's 20 different interpretations than hopefully there'se a few standards in the same ballpark, so what's the difference if sleeves are to the elbows or wrist?..really?
Now if the standard was short or shoulder length sleeves, I might wanna checkout if theres righteous fruit on the preaching tree for sure?