For those that left the UPC...

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

It clearly teaches Holy Ghost was not given for he was not yet glorified. No fixing to say otherwise. I know it doesn't say tongues but to claim the holy ghost was given pre-cross is without scriptural merit in light of what Jesus said.

Yeah what Sam said.

[DrPhil]

Truthseeker I believe when Jesus breathed on them it was post resurrection. Am I wrong?

[DrPhil]

Falla, Great story about the African man. The quote about "another gospel" however is really about returning to legalism after experiencing the grace of God. My move was away from legalism to an understanding of salvation by grace through faith.

Interesting story because i am heading for Kenya Sunday for two weeks. Pray for me please. I will be preaching crusades and leading pastor's conferences. God bless all of you.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Truthseeker I believe when Jesus breathed on them it was post resurrection. Am I wrong?

You are right.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sam

The appearance of Jesus in the upper room when He breathed on His disciples and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost," was post resurrection.

Earlier that day He had told Mary Magdalene not to touch Him (John 20:11-18) because He had not yet ascended to the Father. Then later the same day (John 20:19-23) He appeared to some disciples, showed them His hands and pierced side and breathed His Spirit into them.

This evening on resurrection day is considered by some Apostolics to be the "dispensational" or "new covenant" birth of the Church by the Spirit since the testator had died, risen from the dead, and presented His blood at the Heavenly Holy of Holies. Then Pentecost 50 days later is considered the baptism or empowering of the church by the Holy Spirit as the "promise of the Father" was poured out. Easter night was the inbreathing or birthing of the Spirit and Pentecost was the pouring out or empowering of the Spirit. In other words, the disciples of Jesus were saved during the ministry of Jesus under Old Covenant terms prior to Easter but were now saved under New Covenant terms after the death, burial, and resurrection.

There are differences of opinion among Apostolics on this. Some think that the disciples of Jesus were not saved or born of the Spirit prior to the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, that the breathing on in John 12 was a promise or symbol of what would happen 50 days later.

I agree with those apostolics who think the breathing was a promise or symbol for a number of reasons. Jesus told them to wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father...the sending of the Comforter. If they already had the Spirit, why did they have to wait to receive the Spirit again?

Jesus never spoke of receiving the Holy Spirit in increments until we become completely full.

Although I believe Jesus was glorified by his resurrection, ascension, and given the throne of God in heaven, it wasn't until the day of Pentecost, a day specifically chosen of God after the glorification of Christ in which to send the Holy Spirit, the living water of God.

Also Jesus said he would have to go away before sending the Spirit to them. They would not need "another comforter" as long as Jesus was with them, as he was before his death and after his death for forty days. It wasn't until Jesus finally remained in heaven awaiting his second coming that the other Comforter was sent. While Jesus was physically still with them, they didn't need the Holy Spirit to comfort them because they had Jesus right there in front of them. Otherwise the apostles had two comforters at the same time which defeated one of the purposes of sending the Spirit.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Truthseeker I believe when Jesus breathed on them it was post resurrection. Am I wrong?

Yeah, it was after the resurrection but before his ascension. That would lead to the next question was him ascending part of being glorified??

[Truthseeker]

Acts 11:15

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
KJV


When was "at the beginning" was Peter refering to???

[Falla39]

Read Luke 24, then notice the last part of the chapter, Jesus is in-
structing his disciples farther, and then opening their understand-
ing that they might understand the scriptures. The disciples were
witnesses who had been with Jesus. He told them HE was sending
the promise of His Father (Spirit) upon them, but tarry ye in the
city of Jerusalem UNTIL you be endued with power from on high.

Those disciples obeyed, trotted on down to Jerusalem just as Jesus
had said. They were there waiting, their minds all in one accord,
expecting what Jesus said HE was sending! Jesus' mother was there
also, with his brothers. They along with the others, all received the
Spirit (Promise of the Father). They were in one mind and accord,
believing JESUS' words. He had told his disciples while he was yet
with them that the words he spake unto them , "the words I
speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life". In other words,
listen and do my words.

Those in Judaea that heard Jesus' words in Matt. 24, etc., got out of
Jerusalem and fled to the mountains and to Pella where they were
safe. Those that didn't hear or believe his words perished in the seige.
No doubt they were not watching for the armies and continued to
come and go in and out of Jerusalem until it was too late to escape. (See
Luke 21:20-22 , concerning Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.)

Jesus, through his disciples, (his chosen apostles), gave instruct-
ions before he ascended back to where he came from, as what to
teach and preach. Those who did/do not believe and obey, will not
escape and will likewise perish. Many have not taken it seriously
although they have heard the message all their lives.

Heb. 2:1-4

1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


Lord, I lift Your name on high
Lord, I love to sing Your praises
I'm so glad Your in my life
I'm so glad You came to save us

You came from heaven to earth
To show the way
From the earth to the cross
My debt to pay
From the cross to the grave
From the grave to the sky
Lord, I lift Your name on high

Lord, I lift Your name on high
Lord, I love to sing Your praises
I'm so glad Your in my life
I'm so glad You came to save us

You came from heaven to earth
To show the way
From the earth to the cross
My debt to pay
From the cross to the grave
From the grave to the sky
Lord, I lift Your name on high

Falla39

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Then where does one stop and the other began, too many that profess to having the holy ghost based on speaking in tongues don't have the fruits to show for it.

This is what I think James was talking about then he said you say you have faith I will show you my faith by my works. I don't think the works he is speaking of are the works that so many three steppers call the steps of salvation. But the manifesting of the works or fruit of the spirit. The works he then list confirm this in my mind.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The sowing of the
seed (Word) is not visible when it is first sown. But wait a little while and you
will see a blade, then that which follows.

When a couple want to have a child, there is seed sown. Many seed, but it
only takes one for a child to be conceived. You don't know exactly which
"seed" caused that conception or beginning. There will be signs that follow
though that will confirm that a conception has begun. Missed period, morning
sickness, yucky feelings, but wait a while! Things will get better after while.
There will be the slight "showing" in about 3 months, that a child is being
formed and eventually, if everything goes as it should, a live birth. Joy after
the long "night", 9 months of waiting.

Sunday morning when Koffi experienced his "New Birth", he said, while smiling
excitely, "I feel Re-born, brand new"!! JOY was evident and has continued
this week. Could it be that "seeing" others experience New Birth, could cause
those present to desire the experience also! It made us all joyous and glad to
see a NEW Birth and we even got to be in the "Birthing Room and share the joy
up close!

Many times it causes a woman to desire a child, after seeing someone else
with a new baby. The joy that comes AFTERWARD, could give the onlooker
the faith that maybe childbirth is not so bad after all. They look SO happy
afterwards! After the long months of "burden" and then the struggle through
the birthing process, etc. But the joy AFTERWARD!! Weeping may endure for
the "night" but JOY is coming in the morning (dawning) of the NEW DAY!
He that goeth forth, weeping, bearing precious seed, will doubtless come
again with rejoicing, bring his sheaves with him.

My late father sowed seed, naturally and spiritually for many years and is
now resting in the Presence of the LORD! Expecting until! When the time of
Harvest comes and all the laboring is ended, and he and Mom see what their
labor on earth produced (God gives the increase), what rejoicing there will be.

Those eleven children and their children and their children's children, etc, etc
etc, they will know that their labour on earth was not in vain at all. They did
their part, God blessed it and gave the increase for the generations that came
afterward and labored in the field they began in 1958. Still producing and
bringing forth much fruit. Seedtime and harvest! Naturally and Spiritually. All
the souls that have been "Born Again" as a result of the field they planted so
long ago. Oh what rejoicing when they see the fruit of their labour that was
not in vain, in the LORD!

Bear with me as I dream awhile, for I was an 19 yr old when they began the
work in our city. Graduated in 1957, received the Holy Ghost in 1958, married
in 1959. Still attend the work for God that Dad and Mom began in 58., Only
now there are many more of us. Four generations that have sprung from just
we two, and God giving the increase, the church has grown, and continues,
our family has grown and continues.

Dad and Mom's family has continued to grow. Monday, the Lord willing, over
100 of their family will meet together on Memorial Day to honor our late parents.
There are over 100 direct descendants of their family alone. Their children.
grandchildren, great-grandchildren and great-greatchildren. What a tribe!

Blessings,

Falla39

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Ok. He is talking about the spirit or "living water" that is given to everyone that believes in Him...not tongues. If it was a forshadowing it was a forshadowing of his spirit being poured out after His death, but again this is not talking about tongues. I am of the mind that the disciples were given special advantages by being that close to Him. I believe they very likely had been given the spirit before the others were. Thus the breathing and saying receive ye the spirit. IMO

Tongues are the language of the Spirit. When we receive the Holy Ghost,
we connect and speak in the language of the Spirit! He gives the utterance.
GOD is in control,

Falla39