Apology to World

[Walks_in_islam]

Had to go back awhile to find that one?

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

Sounds really safe there. Think they got the horse before the cart. Doesn't sound like gentle home town people.

Saudi Arabia: Rape Victim Punished for Speaking Out
Court Doubles Sentence for Victim, Bans Her Lawyer From the Case
November 15, 2007
Related Materials: Saudi Arabia: Lift Gag-Order on Rights Campaigner
This verdict not only sends victims of sexual violence the message that they should not press charges, but in effect offers protection and impunity to the perpetrators.
Farida Deif, researcher in the women’s rights division of Human Rights WatchA court in Saudi Arabia doubled its sentence of lashings for a rape victim who had spoken out in public about her case and her efforts to seek justice, Human Rights Watch said today. The court also harassed her lawyer, banning him from the case and confiscating his professional license.

An official at the General Court of Qatif, which handed down the sentence on November 14, said the court had increased the woman’s sentence because of “her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media.” The court sentenced the rape victim to six months in prison and 200 lashes, more than double its October 2006 sentence after its earlier verdict was reviewed by Saudi Arabia’s highest court, the Supreme Council of the Judiciary.

Human Rights Watch called on King Abdullah to immediately void the verdict and drop all charges against the rape victim and to order the court to end its harassment of her lawyer.

“A courageous young woman faces lashing and prison for speaking out about her efforts to find justice,” said Farida Deif, researcher in the women’s rights division of Human Rights Watch. “This verdict not only sends victims of sexual violence the message that they should not press charges, but in effect offers protection and impunity to the perpetrators.”

The young woman, who is married, said she had met with a male acquaintance who had promised to give her back an old photograph of herself. After she met her acquaintance in his car in Qatif, a gang of seven men then attacked and raped both of them, multiple times. Despite the prosecution’s requests for the maximum penalty for the rapists, the Qatif court sentenced four of them to between one and five years in prison and between 80 and 1,000 lashes. They were convicted of kidnapping, apparently because prosecutors could not prove rape. The judges reportedly ignored evidence from a mobile phone video in which the attackers recorded the assault.

Moreover, the court in October 2006 also sentenced both the woman and man who had been raped to 90 lashes each for what it termed “illegal mingling.” Human Rights Watch is particularly concerned that the criminalization of any contact between unmarried individuals of the opposite sex in Saudi Arabia severely impedes the ability of rape victims to seek justice. A court may view a woman’s charge of rape as an admission of extramarital sexual relations (or “illegal mingling”) unless she can prove, by strict evidentiary standards, that this contact was legal and the intercourse was nonconsensual.

In an interview in December, the rape victim described to Human Rights Watch her treatment in court:

“At the first session, [the judges] said to me, ‘what kind of relationship did you have with this individual? Why did you leave the house? Do you know these men?’ They asked me to describe the situation. They used to yell at me. They were insulting. The judge refused to allow my husband in the room with me. One judge told me I was a liar because I didn’t remember the dates well. They kept saying, ‘Why did you leave the house? Why didn’t you tell your husband [where you were going]?’”
“Victims of sexual violence in Saudi Arabia face enormous obstacles in the criminal justice system,” said Deif. “Their interrogations and court hearings are more likely to compound the trauma of the original assault than provide justice.”

During the recent hearings, Judge al-Muhanna of the Qatif court also banned the woman’s lawyer, Abd al-Rahman al-Lahim, from the courtroom and from any future representations of her, without apparent reason. He also confiscated his lawyer’s identification card, which the Ministry of Justice issues. Al-Lahim faces a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry of Justice on December 5, where sanctions can include suspension for three years and disbarment.

Al-Lahim, who is Saudi Arabia’s best-known human rights lawyer, earlier this year had planned to take legal action against the Ministry of Justice for failing to provide him with a copy of the verdict against his client so that he could prepare an appeal. Despite numerous representations to the court and the ministry, he was not given a copy of the case file or the verdict.

“The decision to ban the rape victim’s lawyer from the case shows what little respect Saudi authorities have for the legal profession or the law in general,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch.

On October 3, King Abdullah announced a judicial reform, promising new specialized courts and training for judges and lawyers. There is currently no rule of law in Saudi Arabia, which does not have a written penal code. Judges do not follow procedural rules and issue arbitrary sentences that vary widely. Often, judges do not provide written verdicts, even in death penalty cases. Judges sometimes deny individuals their right to legal representation. In May 2006, a judge in Jeddah had thrown a lawyer out of his courtroom in a civil suit on the sole basis that he is of the Isma’ili faith, a branch of Shiism. Trials remain closed to the public.

[Walks_in_islam]

My math skills need no honing. The article, which listed a series of random and senseless drunk driving fatalities, specified "victims" as extended family members. I and nearly everyone I know has had a family member either injured or killed in such an accident. Are you claiming now that this is uncommon or that it is statistically less common than the injustices (which are the exception, not the rule) that happen under the regime here? I will get you some more numbers then.

Originally Posted by Newman

Better hone your math skills a bit.

[Walks_in_islam]

Venturing out of the "beaten path" is risky no matter where in the world you go. The "beaten path" rule is applicable on all the continents (except MAYBE australia or so my wife tells me) and is a constant regardless of the religious or political leanings of those whose paths you venture on.

Venturing out of the "beaten path" is more risky in some places in the world than others. Numbers show that the US happens to be one of those places.

And....actually no, the expat kids/wives even the teenage girls, roam the malls and markets here unbothered (as do the local residents) just like they do at home. Difference is that they really do not share the streets with pervs, thieves, and thugs. You honestly believe I have some reason to make these things up and to what purpose? I strongly dislike intolerance of all kinds and strongly resent interference in my day-to-day life of all kinds and could care less actually what you think of the people here or how they run their affairs. Painting a rosy picture of home when you know good and well you can't turn your back on your children or property there is a bald-faced untruth and it is futile to search for some justification or comparison that makes it seem safer or better or "more free" than it actually is. You are entitled to a personal summary of what I see and how things are in what you call or assume is a terrible and oppressive place. What you do with facts is up to you.

When it comes to safety, freedom to come and go, and safety of ones personal property, the motivation of the criminal does not matter to me a wit. That is why your churches are retreating further and further into the burbs. Fear, ignorance, and intimidation marches on. Society is held hostage.

Originally Posted by Newman

Wii- Give me a break. You see women being escorted around a big city and call them safe? What if one of them (on her own) chose to venture outside of the area where tourist and/or other Americans are? Really?

I have seen pictures of the Christian Indonesian girls who were beheaded while on their way to school. Is that the kind of safe you are talking about?

And back to the child brides.... Is that just the price they pay from whence their safety comes?

Does the motivation of the criminal make a difference? YES, of course it does. That is why Islam is a growing religion instead of a dying religion. Fear, ignorance and intimidation march on. Society is held hostage.

[SOUNWORTHY]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Had to go back awhile to find that one?

Is that all you have to say? Don't even talk about my country if you can't say something useful.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

My math skills need no honing. The article, which listed a series of random and senseless drunk driving fatalities, specified "victims" as extended family members. I and nearly everyone I know has had a family member either injured or killed in such an accident. Are you claiming now that this is uncommon or that it is statistically less common than the injustices (which are the exception, not the rule) that happen under the regime here? I will get you some more numbers then.

Wii- If you are going to be using statistics; please cite the website from which you derive your facts and figures.

Drunk driving will victimize 4 million Americans this year, which means you will have a 60 percent chance of being a victim

Taking the 4 million victims at face value (which is ridiculous) does not equal a 60% chance of likewise becoming a victim.

4 million divided by 300 million comes out to .0013 not 60 percent

INJUSTICE as the exception and not the rule? Open up your eyes. Do you see women driving? Can women travel the city unescorted? Can women work outside the home if they choose to?

Can a first wife prevent her husband from taking another wife? Have you known of any child brides? Does the Koran allow the husband to hit his wife?

Are women told what to wear and it is enforced out on the street? (I understand that some women want to wear what they wear but not all of them).

Are there churches in Saudi Arabia as there are mosques in the United States? Are muslims free to denounce their faith?

What American could accept these things as just?

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

And....actually no, the expat kids/wives even the teenage girls, roam the malls and markets here unbothered (as do the local residents) just like they do at home. Difference is that they really do not share the streets with pervs, thieves, and thugs. You honestly believe I have some reason to make these things up and to what purpose? I strongly dislike intolerance of all kinds and strongly resent interference in my day-to-day life of all kinds and could care less actually what you think of the people here or how they run their affairs. Painting a rosy picture of home when you know good and well you can't turn your back on your children or property there is a bald-faced untruth and it is futile to search for some justification or comparison that makes it seem safer or better or "more free" than it actually is. You are entitled to a personal summary of what I see and how things are in what you call or assume is a terrible and oppressive place. What you do with facts is up to you.

Bald-faced untruth? Put your money where your mouth is. Are all three of your daughters now with you in Saudi Arabia?

How could they not be? What father could otherwise leave his children in such a dangerous place as the America you paint?

[Walks_in_islam]

<yawns>

WII <-------------<hums> "onward christian soldiers" and considers how many "sounworthy" monkeys on how many typewriters for how many years it took to write the scintillating piece of patriotism below

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

Is that all you have to say? Don't even talk about my country if you can't say something useful.

[Walks_in_islam]

4 million is still 3,980,000 less than all worldwide american deaths by terrorism (including casualties in the "war on terror") since 1967 when the statistics started being tabulated. Nice call with the numbers- I just grabbed a random article which extrapolated "victims" and played with statistics. Who cares? The numbers are SO skewed that no matter which number you use - MADD reports around 14,000 annual, or various other sources which range from 8,000-20,000 it's still worse. All it means is: hmmmmm....Do I have to use (1) year or (2) years to equal total (american) deaths by terrorism tabulated back for (42) years. How much time do you think it is worth spending to calculate 1.225, or is it 1.680, or 1.855 years of drunk driving deaths to pass up terrorism deaths? Now, instead of picking apart my statistics (the point stands, but one can always find someone else's details to pre-empt the details in front of them) do you have something, anything, from anywhere, of your own, with some real numbers, that can tell me or tell anyone who reads this that you are safer from "random acts of violence" in the US than anywhere else in the world? Anything will do (laughing). I'll just sit here and wait for you to find and post the numbers.

Originally Posted by Newman

Wii- If you are going to be using statistics; please cite the website from which you derive your facts and figures.

Drunk driving will victimize 4 million Americans this year, which means you will have a 60 percent chance of being a victim

Taking the 4 million victims at face value (which is ridiculous) does not equal a 60% chance of likewise becoming a victim.

4 million divided by 300 million comes out to .0013 not 60 percent

INJUSTICE as the exception and not the rule? Open up your eyes. Do you see women driving? Can women travel the city unescorted? Can women work outside the home if they choose to?

My eyes to what? Articles? What I see on the street? What?

Driving? Women in Saudi are prevented from driving. It is not for religious reasons. It is for cultural reasons. My wife for instance is from another muslim country. She is disgusted with their rules on driving.

Yes they shop and do their day to day business unescorted. Most of them have drivers. I dunno. They are always in groups lol

Yes. They do work outside the home. At least they work around our offices.

Can a first wife prevent her husband from taking another wife? Have you known of any child brides? Does the Koran allow the husband to hit his wife?

The only thing I know about the multi-wife thing is that you are supposed to have your first wife's consent before you marry another wife. I dunno.

I know of no child brides. Only the one little girl I read about a few months back but they sent her back to her mother. Hopefully the father who gave her away to pay a debt rots in hell.

Does the bible teach that you are supposed to hit your children? With a rod?

Are women told what to wear and it is enforced out on the street? (I understand that some women want to wear what they wear but not all of them).

The standards for dress are like the old pentecostal standards lol. Many used to say the exact same things about pennycostals as pennycostals now appear to be saying about muslim women. Loose clothing from the wrists to the ankles. scarf or some other covering over your hair. In Saudi it is enforced in some areas. It is not enforced in places like the malls and markets and it is not "enforced on the street" at all in most other muslim countries.

Are there churches in Saudi Arabia as there are mosques in the United States? Are muslims free to denounce their faith?

I have specifically listed countries (days ago) where there are churches and where there are not churches. Saudi's intolerance of other religions is one of the areas that they specifically differ from other Muslim countries. Muslims denounce their faith all the time. They are paraded like captured pets on christian stages when they do.

What American could accept these things as just?

Summary:

Accept what things as just? Driving? I disagree. Dress code? I agree. Polygamy? I am neutral. I don't think I could pull that off. Some can. More power to the ones who can. Child brides? I disagree. Age of consent? Cultural. I just don't know. Girls are considered "marriageable" here when they become young women. My wife was (30) when we married. She was working and helping support her family. Hit your wife? I disagree. Intolerance for other religions? I disagree. Islam prohibits this intolerance.

There are rules and laws here just like there are rules and laws there. Some are annoying and we work around them. Some we agree with and some we do not. I do not defend what I do not agree with. You imply somehow that this is a terrible and unsafe place. It is, I assure you, safer here than there. You don't like how things are here? The worst of those laws and codes are enforced with american guns, american tanks, american planes, and american copters. That "high moral code of ethical standards" flag you wave has a dollar sign on the back. Stop propping up people like this who are so oppressive to their people, allow people to set their own standards, and intolerant places like this will cease to exist.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Newman

Bald-faced untruth? Put your money where your mouth is. Are all three of your daughters now with you in Saudi Arabia?

How could they not be? What father could otherwise leave his children in such a dangerous place as the America you paint?

???

[Walks_in_islam]

I have been busy. Travelling. I have no motive or gain for untruths.

I thought I answered that question. Is my family here with me? Of course they are. Do they go out around town without me? Of course they do. Are they ever bothered? Of course they are not. Is the KSA the best Muslim country to live in? It is not. Is it the terrible, fearful place that you make it out to be? It is not.

An idle reminder: (You must still be collecting your data?)

do you have something, anything, from anywhere, of your own, with some real numbers, that can tell me or tell anyone who reads this that you are safer from "random acts of violence" in the US than anywhere else in the world? Anything will do. I'll just sit here and wait for you to find and post the numbers.

I'm still waiting for that answer by the way.

Now: Let's say Pentecostals ran the world -

Women would be covered in dresses, as they are in Saudi

Women would not be allowed to wear jewelry or makeup. Those are sinful, right? They are allowed to do so in Saudi

There would be separate pools and separate facilities for men and women, as there are in Saudi. "Mixed bathing" etc is sinful right?

There would be no secular music like there is in Saudi. Secular music is sinful right?

There would be segregated churches. After all "state laws" made that easy right? There are no segregated mosques anywhere in the world

There would be no television like there is in Saudi. Television is sinful right?

An idle observation (from an outsider such as myself) would conclude that pentecostal kids don't get to choose their religion and lifestyle either. This is to answer a critical comment you made about muslims earlier.

Short summary: Life under Sharia law in Saudi would be better than life under "Pentecostal law" anywhere. Yet Muslims pray more, fast more, give more, and follow a much stricter and more conservative lifestyle than any flashy, hair-sprayed pentecostal ever did. Go figure.

Originally Posted by Newman

???