KH believes the Light Doctrine??

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Sam

We've pretty well beat that one to death here also.

"For" the forgiveness of sins can mean "in order to obtain" the forgiveness of sins or it can mean "because of the forgiveness of sins." The Greek word "eis" can be interpreted either way. We've seen all kinds of Greek scholars quoted and some give it one meaning and some the other.

The fundamental doctrine statement of the UPC was amended at the 1973 conference to add the words "for the remission of sin." The motion to add the words was made by S.G. Norris who believed it meant "in order to obtain remission of sin" and it was seconded by W.M. Greer who believed it meant "because of the remission of sin."

HAHAHA!!! I am wondering if we haven't beat every subject to death by now.

[Aquila]

If God can fill a person with the Holy Ghost prior to baptism, clearly much more takes place before baptism than we might traditionally think. What God actually does demonstrates how we should interpret Scripture.

Maybe the next time God fills someone with the Holy Ghost before they are baptized someone should remind Him that the person is still unforgiven until we can find someone duly authorized to dunk 'em.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Then how can one receive the Holy Ghost days, weeks, or even months before water baptism in Jesus name? Can someone who is still unclean and unforgiven receive the "Holy" Ghost?

It's only your interpretation of Acts 2:38 that declares that remission of sins must only occur at water baptism. Many Greek scholars would translated it as saying:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, (and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The very fact that God fills repentant individuals with the Holy Ghost is reason to make one reconsider the 3-Stepper requirements to salvation. I was filled with the Holy Ghost after repenting when God forgave my sins...I was baptized later. If God hadn't forgiven (remitted) my sins at repentance how could I have received the Holy Ghost? How can anyone be filled with the Holy Ghost before water baptism?

I think those are important questions.

Many have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and do not get baptized in Jesus' name. Some have been baptized in the Orthodox FS&HG method, some were sprinkled as babies and never immersed.

[Aquila]

Sam, if you don't mind me asking; what organization are you a part of?

[Aquila]

I believe that if one refuses to be water baptized in Jesus name there's an obedience issue that might need to be addressed through bible study or admonition. I think that it's possible that those who ultimately refuse to be water baptized in Jesus name may be classified as being backsliden or in disobedience. While water baptism in Jesus name may not be an absolute requirement for salvation according to some Greek interpretations of Acts 2:38 it is a command that calls for obedience. Therefore one can conceivably repent, be forgiven, be filled with the Holy Ghost, BUT refuse to be baptized in Jesus name and be lost on the basis of disobedience. Baptism is at the very least the first step of obedience (Mark 16:16).

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Then how can one receive the Holy Ghost days, weeks, or even months before water baptism in Jesus name? Can someone who is still unclean and unforgiven receive the "Holy" Ghost?

It's only your interpretation of Acts 2:38 that declares that remission of sins must only occur at water baptism. Many Greek scholars would translated it as saying:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, (and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The very fact that God fills repentant individuals with the Holy Ghost is reason to make one reconsider the 3-Stepper requirements to salvation. I was filled with the Holy Ghost after repenting when God forgave my sins...I was baptized later. If God hadn't forgiven (remitted) my sins at repentance how could I have received the Holy Ghost? How can anyone be filled with the Holy Ghost before water baptism?

I think those are important questions.

Once someone has repented they are no longer walking in sin. They have turned away from their sinful life and the thoughts that they use to think. They have had a change of heart (mind). They are walking in the light. They are 'accepted' with God. What makes you think this is not enough for God to put His Spirit in them?

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Once someone has repented they are no longer walking in sin. They have turned away from their sinful life and the thoughts that they use to think. They have had a change of heart (mind). They are walking in the light. They are 'accepted' with God. What makes you think this is not enough for God to put His Spirit in them?

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The issue is that if forgiveness (GK. aphesis, translated "remission") of sins only takes place at baptism how can God fill someone with the Holy Ghost if they are unbaptized (i.e. unforgiven)?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Sam, if you don't mind me asking; what organization are you a part of?

I go to a trinity Pentecostal church named Hamilton Dream Center. Their web site is
http://www.hamiltondreamcenter.com/
The pastor is a Rhema graduate and is ordained through Rhema and also through a group called WME (World Missionary Evangelism) whose web site is
http://www.wmeinc.org/
I am ordained in one of the organizations that calls itself the Church of Jesus Christ. Their web site is
http://www.angelfire.com/tn3/cojci/
Some times the site takes a while to load. You will find my name listed under the Ohio ministers and also alphabetically under Ellis. You will also see my web site listed in their links. My website needs work. Some of my links no longer work.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Sam

We've pretty well beat that one to death here also.

Until this week, I cannot recall in the last many many many months having any discussion on Fundamental beliefs Sam.

Do chime in even if you feel from the FCF/NFCF days it was beat to death. Some are new and never saw the discussions.

[Aquila]

Um, Sam...you know someone was gonna ask this. Why are you attending a trinity Pentecostal church seeing that God has revealed the Oneness truth to you?