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  #251  
Old 03-26-2007, 01:58 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Justification and forgiveness/remission conceptually are different .... Yet if we believe God has forgiven/remitted our sins with true repentance ... would he not also have justified us, or "declared us righteous" also, simultaneously.
I believe forgiveness and remission of sins are the same thing.

What scriptures tell us that our sins are forgiven/remitted when we first come to repentance? I can find verses that link remission with water baptism but not repentance. Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1Co 6:11

We are justified by faith. Is that the same as remission?

Repentance in the Bible is repentance and belief is belief. Only God can judge "saving" faith and "true" repentance. Although if someone truly repents they will bring forth works meet for repentance.

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Remission [aphesis]is used synonymously in the NT with forgiveness [aphesis] ... except for one example in the book of Romans ... The English KJV usage of both words has thrown many off ... from it's original intent and distorting sound doctrine.
Are you saying the KJV distorts sound doctrine? What problems do you have with the received text? What translation do you use and how do you know that the edited text has not been distorted?

Quote:
... which is to say that other translations use forgiveness and remission using the same word ... i.e. Spanish Reina Valera ... simply uses one word "perdon" for both ... making no semantical distinction.
I agree with you that remission and forgiveness are the same thing in the Greek.
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  #252  
Old 03-26-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
I believe forgiveness and remission of sins are the same thing.

What scriptures tell us that our sins are forgiven/remitted when we first come to repentance? I can find verses that link remission with water baptism but not repentance. Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1Co 6:11
I'm not getting you, Mizpeh

You are accepting that forgiveness and remission are the same thing but then suggest that forgiveness/remission doesn't really happen until baptism ... because the bible does not give witness to remission/forgiveness happening at repentance ?

You can't really mean this can you???

are you ignoring ...

the following verses:

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive
us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness – 1 John 1:9.

In each one of the penitential psalms (Pss. 6; 32; 38; 51; 102; 130; 143), the psalmist is demonstrating the heart of a justified believer when he seeks forgiveness. In each case the psalmist is already a believer, fully forgiven.

In the gospels, Christ taught believers to ask the Father to forgive their sins (Matt. 6:12; Mark 11:25; Luke 11:4).

In 1 John 1, the verb tenses show that confession and forgiveness should be a continuous experience. Verse 7 literally reads, "The blood of Jesus His Son keeps cleansing us from all sin," and verse 9 likewise says, "If we are continually confessing our sins." Those to whom John wrote were already fully forgiven believers (cf. 5:13).

But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God’s forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren’t you praying for something that is already yours?

The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It’s the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ’s atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete–you’ll never need to seek it again.

The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

Let me show you the difference:
Judicial forgiveness deals with sin’s penalty–parental forgiveness deals with sin’s consequences.
Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged–parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment–parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace.

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We are justified by faith. Is that the same as remission?
How can God declare us righteous ... if we have initial faith, and subsequent repentance, while not also wiping our slate clean or washing our sins away... with the blood he shed???

Quote:
Repentance in the Bible is repentance and belief is belief. Only God can judge "saving" faith and "true" repentance. Although if someone truly repents they will bring forth works meet for repentance.
I agree entirely with this statement.


Quote:

Are you saying the KJV distorts sound doctrine? What problems do you have with the received text? What translation do you use and how do you know that the edited text has not been distorted?
No, I don't think I've said this ... I am saying that some would like to say repentance cleans you [forgiveness]... but water baptism washes it away [remission] .... How can you make such an argument if they are ... in your words the same thing.

It is a distortion of interpretation .... of Acts 2:38 that really hang on our varying interpretations of the word '"eis" where most PAJCers say that baptism 'activates' grace and washes away sin ... because the blood is applied through being born of water .... or simply baptism causes forgiveness.

while some believe believe eis means as a result of forgiveness being made available to us through faith in the work of the Lamb and in Jesus Christ.

Quote:
I agree with you that remission and forgiveness are the same thing in the Greek
If you believe they are the same ... how is it you can preach forgiveness at repentance ... but remission only happens after you are baptized? Either it's the same thing or the same thing.
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  #253  
Old 03-26-2007, 03:21 PM
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dan,
your scriptural cites are valid in the context to whom they were penned.

I submit that they were written to brethren who had already had the yoke of bondage to sin broken in the waters of baptism.

We do not need to be re-baptized if we sin, we have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous, with whom we are buried in baptism.

But water baptism is the separating, the putting off, of the body of the sins of the flesh, the circumcision of our hearts.

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead


I do not think folks need to constantly run through the Red Sea to be free of the bondage of sin, but each of us must have the circumcision of Christ accomplished in our lives and that circumcision is accomplished in the waters of baptism.
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  #254  
Old 03-26-2007, 03:48 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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TBP,

This doctrine of baptismal remission ... sins being put away ... as happening at baptism ... is seriously flawed ...

First, believing this is to say that a work activates our salvation ... or a works-based salvation .... we are baptized because of salvation not to cause it ... If you disobey his any his commands in this faith walk ... including baptism ... it constitutes unbelief.

and you are adovocating that our initial faith and subsequent repentance did not wipe away our sins ..... only the baptism does it ....

If that's the case ... let's baptize folks and call it a day ....

Let's examine your prooftext.


Col. 2:11-15: (NKJV)
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Paul in Col. 2 is clearly relating the “circumcision” of Christians to the “circumcision” of Jews at two levels:

(1) The spiritual reality to which the physical ordinance signifies, or symbolizes but not what it causes ...

(2) The corresponding distinctive of the physical ordinance as a means of identifying the Covenant People of God. The question he is addressing is the validity of the Gentile Church’s claim to be members of God’s Covenant people. Note that he says (vs. 11) that you were “also” circumcised, in other words that the Colossians’ claim to Covenant people status is of the same nature as those who have been physically circumcised.

This is a general restatement of Paul’s teaching that “in Him there is no Jew or Greek....”, a position to which this passage, in context is building toward (Col. 3:11). This equality of Christians and Jews in covenant status is a major issue with Paul and may in fact be a factor in virtually everything he writes. Note the emphasis that he gives it in Romans 10:12, 1 Cor. 12:13, Gal. 3:28,29 et al.

So, in addressing the question of any equivalence in baptism and circumcision in Col. 2:11-15 at all we must first understand this background to Paul’s teaching.

Paul clearly understood and here clearly teaches, that neither baptism nor circumcision ever “put off the body of the sins of the flesh.”

The OT is replete with references where God makes mention that the “true circumcision” is a “circumcision of the heart” (Deut. 10:16, Deut. 30. 6, Jer. 4:4) and Paul specifically details this point in Romans 2:29. In this last passage, Paul’s point is that a true Jew is one whose external circumcision has been fulfilled in the internal circumcision which places his heart in right relation to God. Certainly we understand that this reordering of one’s life (circumcision of the heart) to such a right relation with God is a description of regeneration

Now, in the days of the early church, most Gentile converts were adults and were baptized as adults. This would correspond to a Gentile being admitted into the Jewish race by undergoing adult circumcision. Paul’s language addresses that common situation by referring to the manner in which these Colossians had been admitted into the visible kingdom of God, through baptism.

But his point, explicitly made, is that the baptism in which they were “buried” was the “circumcision of Christ.” Now if the spiritual reality of OT circumcision was “circumcision of the heart” then there can be no doubt that the spiritual reality of NT baptism is here stated as “circumcision of Christ.”

It seems irrefutable that Jesus’ admonition to Nicodemus, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things” (John 3:10) is entirely justified on the very basis that spiritual regeneration through the self-evident work of the Holy Spirit is the only means by which a person can enter into the Kingdom of God.

If Nicodemus ought to have known this, then certainly all of his OT predecessors ought to have know it also.

Thus, baptism is clearly taught as being the physical equivalent of circumcision because it corresponds to the same external / internal relation to spiritual regeneration that existed in the OT Covenant administration.

To argue against this one has to assume that in the OT “salvation” was in some essential manner, accomplished differently, or maybe better, than in the NT and that the Kingdom of God did not exist prior to Christ’s incarnation and therefore could not be “entered into” in the manner now possible. This argument reduces down to arguing that salvation in the OT was not of faith in the same manner as it is in the NT.

If in the OT salvation was not by faith or by a differing content of faith, through God’s spiritual regeneration of the individual, giving them a new heart and accomplishing in them an enlightened mind which was able to comprehend God through Christ in essentially the same manner as NT believers, then the argument that baptism is not equivalent to circumcision is entirely valid.

If this is argued then there is no correlation between OT and NT saints. God deals with them in different ways and justifies them according to different standards.

If you believe that Paul is suggesting that works like baptism and circumcision 'activate' a putting away of our sins please keep in mind;

Paul himself teaches that Abraham was saved by faith prior to circumcision (Romans 4:9-12). Certainly, since his entire argument rests upon a correspondence between the present faith of the Romans with that of Abraham then there cannot be any essential difference in Abraham’s faith and NT believers' with regard to object or manifestation.

• It is the faith of OT saints which is held up for NT saints’ emulation in Heb. 11. Certainly their example of faith would not be appropriate for New Testament believers if the object and practice of their faith were essentially different.

• In the OT faith in “the Christ” was the object of the sacrificial system though understood darkly (Heb. 8:3-5) and was the fulfillment of the law. If such is the case then any spiritual significance of circumcision was tied to the exact same “salvation by Grace through Faith” truth which is signified, or symbolized, in baptism.
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  #255  
Old 03-26-2007, 03:54 PM
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freeatlast freeatlast is offline
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Daniel: thank you for these posts today. Hopefully some light will be shed for those believing remission/forgivness comes only at baptism.

If that is really you in your avatar. you are wise beyond your years.
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  #256  
Old 03-26-2007, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
repentance, or repent is not translated as aphesis, Ferd.
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  #257  
Old 03-26-2007, 03:57 PM
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freeatlast freeatlast is offline
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Originally Posted by freeatlast View Post
Could we see your scriptural references to justification being procured only at Baptism?

I gotta run off to work for a bit. I'll be back , so take your time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley
Nope Justification occurs when remission of sins are procured by baptism in Jesus Name after one has genuinely repented.


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  #258  
Old 03-26-2007, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
TBP,

This doctrine of baptismal remission ... sins being put away ... as happening at baptism ... is seriously flawed ...

First, believing this is to say that a work activates our salvation ... or a works-based salvation ....
Now I know yours was a long post with some really deep things but i got this far and had to stop.....

so getting wet is "works" but saying "God forgive me" is not?

where does one draw the line? it seems to me that no matter how you cut if, if you are going to go with the whole "Works" thing, you loose on the first swing.

Why isnt hearing a work? you have to HEAR the gospel first. hearing is an aciton.

We arent saved by our own works we are saved by God/Jesus/the WORK of Calvary......buuuuuuuut every saved person (even if you believe the presbyterians are saved) has to RESPOND to the gospel or they die lost. ANY responce be it repentance or getting wet, is by your definition of "Works" a...work....
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  #259  
Old 03-26-2007, 04:03 PM
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Dan,
have at it, you are accountable for what you put forth as I am for what I put forth.

I have stated in multiple locations, that water baptism is our agreement, our works, that demonstrate our faith that came by hearing, is alive, not abiding alone.

Dan,
If you choose not to connect the circumcision of Christ with water baptism, and teach such, you will answer to your master as I will to mine.

You also probably find no true witness that as eight souls were saved by water is the like manner that baptism does now save us; being the answer of good conscience toward God (I hear the call, I answer the call).

It seems pretty plain to me that circumcision was an agreement with a commandment. It was for Abraham, and it is for those who are buried with Christ in baptism.
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  #260  
Old 03-26-2007, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by freeatlast View Post
Daniel: thank you for these posts today. Hopefully some light will be shed for those believing remission/forgivness comes only at baptism.

If that is really you in your avatar. you are wise beyond your years.
concerning anything I have posted, I made a clear acknowledgement that forgiveness is available post-water baptism.

If we sin, we have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

What I completely disagree with is the relegating of water baptism to some sort of ritual sacrament that duty-bound folks carry out in front of a nice little audience to demonstrate their outward sign of an inward change.

The yoke must be broken.
We all must pass through the sea and under the cloud.
Sin's hold must be ended.
Baptism is the agreement we participate in concerning God's command.

Of course there is forgiveness/remission apart from water baptism, but there is no deliverance from the old man without death and burial.
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin

Death and burial is the remedy for the old man having dominion. Teaching repentance is great message, but its seems that it would only teaching a half-way remedy concerning God's commandment.
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