Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[shazeep]

And the focus of the bible is saying the saved are those who trust in the work of the cross for their righteousness, both initially and ongoing.

now this is a diff story, and i agree with you here, while suggesting that the work of the cross is a spiritual matter, from God, and men may not have the best definition of it. a dispassionate look at yours would surely suggest that you have a fairly legalistic view, accept such and such concept and perform such and such works at an altar, intoning such and such words in a public profession of faith, and you have to mean it or it doesn't count. This is fine, for you; after all, we must all seek our own salvation. But this doesn't mean you get to define salvation for everyone else; or if it does, explain to me how and we'll go from there.

[mfblume]

S,

I never stated once, and even contradicted the thought., that we go through motions at an altar and we have it.

no no no no. It's what goes on in the HEART ALONE. Nothing the Not the altar. I preach against the view you think I espouse.

It's like I say this is not black, it's white. And you say, "Brother it's not black." I say I agree. You say, but brother, it's not black.

Anyone else?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

S,

I never stated once, and even contradicted the thought., that we go through motions at an altar and we have it.

no no no no. It's what goes on in the HEART ALONE. Nothing the Not the altar. I preach against the view you think I espouse.

It's like I say this is not black, it's white. And you say, "Brother it's not black." I say I agree. You say, but brother, it's not black.

Anyone else?

I think it is a common disorder that spans various fields, not just religion. I've seen people on four wheel drive truck forums do the same thing. I've seen proponents of 'free energy machines' do the same thing. I've definitely seen it in political discussions.

I think it is a symptom of the breakdown in education over the past 100 years. People simply have not been taught to think rationally. Not only that, they have been specifically taught to think NON rationally, ANTI rationally.

Makes for increased post counts, though.

[shazeep]

yes, i am surely mentally deficient now, also; be my guest and inject some rationality into the following, then.

reason it however you like; but note that you cannot believe both that it is a matter of the heart and "All Catholics are lost." And it may not make you very comfortable, but you accept as "saved" those who have gone through similar motions at the altar, and in fact lead others to the same path, and proclaim them "saved," while condemning others who have not had the correct words said over them at "baptism," etc. You would offer to re-baptize them, surely, regardless of where their heart was on the matter, and you would strongly suggest--or more likely demand--that they are lost unless and until they do so. Correct?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, i am surely mentally deficient now, also; be my guest and inject some rationality into the following, then.

reason it however you like; but note that you cannot believe both that it is a matter of the heart and "All Catholics are lost." And it may not make you very comfortable, but you accept as "saved" those who have gone through similar motions at the altar, and in fact lead others to the same path, and proclaim them "saved," while condemning others who have not had the correct words said over them at "baptism," etc. You would offer to re-baptize them, surely, regardless of where their heart was on the matter, and you would strongly suggest--or more likely demand--that they are lost unless and until they do so. Correct?

Again, cognitive dissonance.

Acts 2:38 is a list of things that are between GOD AND THE PERSON.

Repent: God must hear the person indicate to Him that one's ways are turning around, and seeking forgiveness FROM GOD. If it's not in the heart, the outward words mean NOTHING.

Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins: GOD must see the heart believe that one is being buried with Christ into Christ's death with actual and genuine faith. As the blood remits sins, so baptism is said to remit sins. Both BLOOD and BAPTISM point to the death of JESUS. So, GOD must see the heart that actually believes one is being immersed into that death on the cross. That's what Jesus meant when He said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Without the BELIEF the ACTIVITY is useless and void.

And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost: Only God can give the Holy Ghost. People can fake it and fake tongues. And many have. But God alone gives the genuine Holy Ghost. And it occurs when a person's spirit is born of God.

All these three elements require genuine faith in God THAT ONLY GOD CAN SEE. Each of them can be faked. But that does not do away with the fact that the genuine experience of each them is vital for salvation.

Having said all of that, anyone can go through these motions and FAKE it all. And that means God saw NO saving faith involved in any of it if it's been faked by a person. We can see the outward activity being obeyed. But we cannot see the heart. But the fact remains those three elements are commanded in the Bible and must be carried out with genuine faith for salvation.

When someone goes through those steps, if they faked it that's their problem not mine. We all have enough sense to know the ultimate judgment comes from GOD AND NOT US. AND if God never saw the genuine faith required to make those three elements efficacious, then the person is lost.

And just because they can be faked, and just because many went through the motions alone, does not mean entire religious movements are saved without going through those three elements of genuine faith-filled obedience. Entire religious movements DO NOT TEACH faith in baptism, since these are the ones that baptize infants. Entire religious movements refuse to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. These movements do not believe you speak in tongues when the Spirit fills a person as it did in the book of Acts.

It's not lack of going through motions at an altar that makes them lost. People can act out Acts 2:38 at an altar and remain lost. So, that shoots down you repeated nonsense you've been accusing me of in lying manners for months now, despite my repeated statements I do not look at activity at the altar. But just because people can ACT out those steps in faked obedience, and be lost, that still does not mean entire religious movements who fully avoid and do not follow through in genuine faith with these three elements God requires are saved. two wrongs don't make a right.

So, when we point to Acts 2:38 and ask these religious adherents if they did that for salvation, and they say NO, then they are lost.

And if they say they DID those three steps, but had no genuine faith required of God in each of them, they are just as lost as a faking OP who went through motions at an altar.

It's not a matter of having the correct words spoken over them at baptism. It's a matter of obeying the word of God and speaking what the word of God said to speak at baptism. It's as serious an issue to speak the name of Jesus in invocation as it is when casting out a demon. the name of Jesus has POWER.

You make the same mistake as those in Acts who saw Paul speak the name of Jesus and heal a person. You miss the same thing they missed. While you look at it as mere words, Paul said this, indicating even the invocation must be faith-filled and not repetition of words:

Act 3:16 KJV And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

You see it as speaking the right words. You lack faith tin the work of the cross by what you stated about it providing righteousness. You lack faith in the work of the cross when you cannot agree the Koran teaches people to deny the very thing God said we must have faith in to be saved. The Koran teaches salvation buy works, and you defend them, and distort the bible's words about saved by childbirth into something apart from the cross, and the Good Samaritan into something apart from the cross for salvation. And you talk about me teaching motions at an altar make one saved, when I distinctly denied it repeatedly. But the worst lack of faith is in the actual statements the bible makes about the cross and righteousness, and in this instance today your lack of faith in invoking the name of Jesus as if it had no more power than saying, "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost." Try casting a devil out that way.

But you'll keep saying "It's not black," after I plainly stated it's not black but white.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think it is a common disorder that spans various fields, not just religion. I've seen people on four wheel drive truck forums do the same thing. I've seen proponents of 'free energy machines' do the same thing. I've definitely seen it in political discussions.

I think it is a symptom of the breakdown in education over the past 100 years. People simply have not been taught to think rationally. Not only that, they have been specifically taught to think NON rationally, ANTI rationally.

Makes for increased post counts, though.

But brother, It's not black.

lol

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Again, cognitive dissonance.

Acts 2:38 is a list of things that are between GOD AND THE PERSON.

Repent: God must hear the person indicate to Him that one's ways are turning around, and seeking forgiveness FROM GOD. If it's not in the heart, the outward words mean NOTHING.

Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins: GOD must see the heart believe that one is being buried with Christ into Christ's death with actual and genuine faith. As the blood remits sins, so baptism is said to remit sins. Both BLOOD and BAPTISM point to the death of JESUS. So, GOD must see the heart that actually believes one is being immersed into that death on the cross. That's what Jesus meant when He said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Without the BELIEF the ACTIVITY is useless and void.

And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost: Only God can give the Holy Ghost. People can fake it and fake tongues. And many have. But God alone gives the genuine Holy Ghost. And it occurs when a person's spirit is born of God.

All these three elements require genuine faith in God THAT ONLY GOD CAN SEE. Each of them can be faked. But that does not do away with the fact that the genuine experience of each them is vital for salvation.

Having said all of that, anyone can go through these motions and FAKE it all. And that means God saw NO saving faith involved in any of it if it's been faked by a person. We can see the outward activity being obeyed. But we cannot see the heart. But the fact remains those three elements are commanded in the Bible and must be carried out with genuine faith for salvation.

When someone goes through those steps, if they faked it that's their problem not mine. We all have enough sense to know the ultimate judgment comes from GOD AND NOT US. AND if God never saw the genuine faith required to make those three elements efficacious, then the person is lost.

And just because they can be faked, and just because many went through the motions alone, does not mean entire religious movements are saved without going through those three elements of genuine faith-filled obedience. Entire religious movements DO NOT TEACH faith in baptism, since these are the ones that baptize infants. Entire religious movements refuse to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. These movements do not believe you speak in tongues when the Spirit fills a person as it did in the book of Acts.

It's not lack of going through motions at an altar that makes them lost. People can act out Acts 2:38 at an altar and remain lost. So, that shoots down you repeated nonsense you've been accusing me of in lying manners for months now, despite my repeated statements I do not look at activity at the altar. But just because people can ACT out those steps in faked obedience, and be lost, that still does not mean entire religious movements who fully avoid and do not follow through in genuine faith with these three elements God requires are saved. two wrongs don't make a right.

So, when we point to Acts 2:38 and ask these religious adherents if they did that for salvation, and they say NO, then they are lost.

And if they say they DID those three steps, but had no genuine faith required of God in each of them, they are just as lost as a faking OP who went through motions at an altar.

It's not a matter of having the correct words spoken over them at baptism. It's a matter of obeying the word of God and speaking what the word of God said to speak at baptism. It's as serious an issue to speak the name of Jesus in invocation as it is when casting out a demon. the name of Jesus has POWER.

You make the same mistake as those in Acts who saw Paul speak the name of Jesus and heal a person. You miss the same thing they missed. While you look at it as mere words, Paul said this, indicating even the invocation must be faith-filled and not repetition of words:

Act 3:16 KJV And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

You see it as speaking the right words. You lack faith tin the work of the cross by what you stated about it providing righteousness. You lack faith in the work of the cross when you cannot agree the Koran teaches people to deny the very thing God said we must have faith in to be saved. The Koran teaches salvation buy works, and you defend them, and distort the bible's words about saved by childbirth into something apart from the cross, and the Good Samaritan into something apart from the cross for salvation. And you talk about me teaching motions at an altar make one saved, when I distinctly denied it repeatedly. But the worst lack of faith is in the actual statements the bible makes about the cross and righteousness, and in this instance today your lack of faith in invoking the name of Jesus as if it had no more power than saying, "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost." Try casting a devil out that way.

But you'll keep saying "It's not black," after I plainly stated it's not black but white.

so, with all the rhetoric and accusation stripped out, this is basically a yes, correct? I am not trying to say that this does not lead some people to Christ, please note, but that you take these to be indicators of faith in God, for better or worse; you become the arbiter of Acts 2:38, essentially. If you ask them and they tell you "no," they are by definition "lost," and God must follow this line of thought and condemn them, iow. Correct, or no?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

so, with all the rhetoric and accusation stripped out, this is basically a yes, correct? I am not trying to say that this does not lead some people to Christ, please note, but that you take these to be indicators of faith in God, for better or worse; you become the arbiter of Acts 2:38, essentially. If you ask them and they tell you "no," they are by definition "lost," and God must follow this line of thought and condemn them, iow. Correct, or no?

You seem to think it matters not what the bible actually intends for us to believe, so long as a person is sincere in their obedience, even as misguided as it might be? Correct? Do you believe God has an intention behind His words that leaves one and only one correct interpretation, and it is our duty to pray and sincerely seek Him for that single meaning? Or do you think any old interpretation goes, so long as it is honest from the heart? Seems you deny the reality of there being people who are sincerely wrong.

"Hey, you believe the bible? Good! Then no matter what interpretation you have, so long as you are sincere in your obedience of what YOU think the word says (there's no singular interpretation that is right, you know), you're saved." Is that your stance?

How many times must I say God determines who obeys Acts 2:38? And how many times must I say entire religious movements deny Acts 2:38 the place Peter gave it.

You keep making it about me. Why? I try to be objective and you keep making it about me. There's the fruit.

So, do you agree I don't go by activity at the altar yet? It's not black, bro.

Please tell me what Jesus MEANT when he said Mark 16:16. How do you find reconciliation with a muslim or catholic in that verse?

While you erringly accuse me of being sectarian, you are opening heaven's door up to anyone despite plains words of the bible that barely need an interpretation, and have gone the opposite direction of ANYTHING GOES so far as interpretation. This explains lack of pinning down the meaning of a verse, and your adverse reaction to actually discussing what scripture means.

[shazeep]

you are just the guy trying to defend "All Catholics are lost," and the scenario i have outlined describes many people, and many churches. It even defines religion, more or less. Im not sure how one could not be defined as sectarian who holds the view that all of another label are lost; is that even possible? Isn't that essentially what "sectarian" means?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you are just the guy trying to defend "All Catholics are lost," and the scenario i have outlined describes many people, and many churches. It even defines religion, more or less. Im not sure how one could not be defined as sectarian who holds the view that all of another label are lost; is that even possible? Isn't that essentially what "sectarian" means?

You're saying the glass is half empty. You're looking at the worst possible interpretation of my words, and ignore my explanations when they don't fit your predetermined interpretation.

I am saying we must obey the word and have genuine faith in the cross, and those religions that lack that faith are not saved. You turn that into me pinpointing certain movements. I am not doing that. I am just saying ANYONE who disregards the cross purpose in granting us righteousness is lost.

It's nothing to do with a label. lol. I already said that. You not only distort the word of God but you distort my words! I say it's not black, and you respond saying, "Why do you say it's black?"

You are essenitally saying this sort of response every time:

"Isn't that essentially what "sectarian" means?"

Why don;t you ask what sectarian actually means?

"I did. I said, 'Isn't that essentially what "sectarian" means?' "

But you are not asking what the word sectarian means.

"Yes, I am. I just said., 'Isn't that essentially what "sectarian" means?' "

When are you going to ask what the word sectarian means?

Forget muslims and catholics. They're not my concern. My concern is what the bible actually says. And why do you keep making this about me? The devil is the accuser of brethren. I am accusing DOCTRINES. You keep making it about me accusing PEOPLE, and it's doctrines I am dealing with. And then you keep making each post as an attack against my person, when I am being objective about doctrines. That tendency ought to concern you.

It's not because people are mulsim that they're lost. It's because their doctrine denies what the bible says is salvationally necessary.

So, it's not about sects. It's about belief.