DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Thanks for the clarification, PO. And, I can see how your dentist friend would be discouraged by the social drinking in a church, I've always found that to be a bit of an incongruence, but then again, I'm thinking of things from my conservative point of reference. Either way, I wouldn't disagree with her assessment based on that issue.

And, you are right, the same people exist in our world, whether they are Apostolic, Charismatic, Baptist, Catholic, etc - there are some committed, and some not so much. We should not judge any group on the actions of a few, but unfortunately, we do, and that's what makes the old "This group is good because Bro. Bob is good, or this group is bad because Bro. Jim is bad" argument null and void. We can all find extreme examples in each group to prove our point. I suppose that is why I'm so sensitive to broad brush statements, and I appreciate the healthy discussion.

I find it interesting that, as your article references, many, if not most, organized churches are experiencing diminishing attendance. I've noticed on television lately, there are a series of commercials entitled "Catholics Come Home" and they feature people who tell of their experiences and reasons for leaving the Catholic church, and how miserable they were, and how glad they are that they are back. Lets me know that it's not just the Protestant movement that is feeling the downturn.

Also, to the comment about people backsliding in America, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it has not as much to do with the power in the churches as it has to do with the prosperity in the nation. If these folks come from countries that have no professional sports, no leisure activities, and no money to attend them even if they existed, it could well be a contributing factor when they come to a country with 500 channels on basic cable, more to do OUTSIDE the church that inside the church, and money with which to indulge these pleasures. Just a thought.

And, I haven't been around here very much lately, so I will concede that maybe I've missed some threads, but at least on this thread, I haven't seen anyone trying to convince anyone to leave the UPCI. I've only seen people discuss the validity of an organizational position. The nastiest posts I've seen on this thread have come from an ultracon, defending the position. And, to be honest, my experience is that there is just as much pressure from those still in the mothership placed on those who have left as the other way around.

Either way, I enjoyed the discussion, thanks!

Sherri's church, Grace Church ... among "Charismatic" churches that speak against social drinking ....

While Elder Epley thinks wine at communion is fine ... There was a time that biblically .... this breaking of bread and wine was a "social" fellowship event.

Those who find excuses will find excuses for going to any church ... and those seeking to prop up their church or org will often resort to fingerpointing as well.

[DAII]

This is the delusion imo, while one comment from our healthcare provider or work colleague that corresponds to our belief makes for good conversation and possibly an opportunity to share our faith ... Or being mesmerized by the incessant drum pounding by leadership that the world wants what we have ... Does not translate into the world wants all we have!

I want world peace and so did Karl Marx. Does that mean I want what the Marxists have? Of course not.

The Pentecostal/ Charismatic movement leads Christianity with unparalleled and explosive growth and still like this they are not flocking to churches that want to change their entire wardrobes (mostly their wives) and sell their TVs using poor hermeneutic and screwy logic as selling points.

They don't want the extremism because they see it for what it is. The numbers bear this out over decades. They do want the Spirit filled experience. They want a Holy God indwelling their hearts. They do want Jesus.

And then they're are some who don't want any part of God while I believe a fraction are drawn to a more exteme and rigid experience in Pentecost because if not they would return to worldliness.

The traditional identity is well established and it's not the reason people are hungering and thirsting for Christ.

[DAII]

What the world is looking for as aptly stated by brother in Christ, Mark Bassett, is a Jesus Identity .... not an Artificial Identity!

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Everytime I see "AI" in refering to "apostolic indentity" it makes me think of a title to a movie that was called AI..........

.......... Artificial Inteligence

Hmmmmmm

[jasites]

Originally Posted by jasites

Good points!

Here's where I'm at:
I think that everyone can agree on the fact the first churches (epistles) without doubt laid down a number of dress codes. Now with that knowledge, do we:
1 - Try to decipher these dress codes and apply them today?
2 - Try to understand the thought process used in creating these dress codes and apply this process to a 21st Century application?

I think the UPCI has done a little bit of both which has yielded some uncanny results (no beards, open-toed shoes, etc.)

But what I don't know that I can live with is the idea that dress standards are to only be a personal conviction. That is just not supported in the Bible and I would venture to say that even the most open-minded member on here would have some issues if their respective platform staff showed up Sun. morning with purple hair, tattoo's, tongue piercing etc. And as result feel that something should be done or said. ...be honest!

Bottom line is:
I think everyone, (Apostolic's, Baptist's, Catholic's etc.) has a line that they feel should be drawn. I don't see eye-to-eye with every issue, but instead of just tearing down and only pointing out the extremists views we have to acknowledge that all of us have some sort of personal standard and begin to consider how we can ever reconcile the differences? I know, I know, standards should not be crammed down throats, and taken out of context! I AGREE MORE THAN YOU KNOW! But having no standards is just unrealistic - every religion, workplace, and business does.

Propose a change! Don't just complain about the obvious. But that's a bigger task than what any of us imagine. In this light, I can't throw that many stones at the UPCI

bump

[RandyWayne]

Here's where I'm at:
I think that everyone can agree on the fact the first churches (epistles) without doubt laid down a number of dress codes. Now with that knowledge, do we:
1 - Try to decipher these dress codes and apply them today?
2 - Try to understand the thought process used in creating these dress codes and apply this process to a 21st Century application?

I vaguely remember "dress codes" spelled out for Levitical priests, but cannot think of a single one placed on anyone else.

And if dress codes were so important, would they really require "deciphering"?

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by DAII

What the world is looking for as aptly stated by brother in Christ, Mark Bassett, is a Jesus Identity .... not an Artificial Identity!

Very true!

I guess that's one reason MB has chosen to leave the mothership.

[jasites]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I vaguely remember "dress codes" spelled out for Levitical priests, but cannot think of a single one placed on anyone else.

And if dress codes were so important, would they really require "deciphering"?

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:9-10)

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. (NIV, 1 Peter 3:2-5)

Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. (NRSV, 1 Corinthians 11:4-7)

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by jasites

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:9-10)

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. (NIV, 1 Peter 3:2-5)

More scripture for Deut poster to not ignore.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by jasites

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:9-10)

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. (NIV, 1 Peter 3:2-5)

Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. (NRSV, 1 Corinthians 11:4-7)

I wouldn't call those a dress code, more like guiding principles.