BTW, the arguments I made in the post you just quoted were from your point of view, and that of other believers. It is my understanding that you do believe Jesus is God, sinless, etc. Just wanted to clarify.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
On the eve of His arrest, trial, and crucifixion, Jesus prayed first that God would “sanctify” (i.e., cleanse, purify, & make holy) the things which His disciples would perform following His death, burial, resurrection and ascension. He prayed that this task might be performed by means of employing the competent and indisputable precepts of His written Word (the Bible), so that “purity” of their teachings might be recognized by others as the most important factors amongst His disciples (see John 17).
This prayer was not only applicable unto those which were living at that moment, but for all that would follow their teachings concerning Him, whereby the assurance was given that they would also become “adopted” citizens of the eternal kingdom of heaven. If we today, just as countless others down through the ages since, will but believe, embrace, and obey the things which the chosen apostles taught during their lifetime, then everything which Jesus expressed as applicable to these 11 men and those who obeyed their teachings, are equally applicable, and will bring about the very same results. I state this with utmost confidence, my friend, having experienced and benefitted from it personally for almost 23 years!
“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”
So, in response to your question (that is, in regards to whether Jesus prayed for a Church which would be void of “divisions” of any kind) - “Are you sure that's what Jesus had in mind when He prayed for unity?” then I feel compelled to assert, without equivocations whatsoever, that this is, in my learned opinion, precisely what He had in mind. In fact, it is possible to locate many passages in the Bible which address this matter quite well (see, for example, Psalm 133; Romans 12:9 & Ephesians 4:3, 13-16).
Yes, it is true - “If the answer comes only when Jesus brings the "real" Christians into Heaven, it will be too late!” Indeed, it will simply be too late for countless others even before this event transpires. This is why I am persuaded that it is so critically important every possible effort must be made today to insure that whomsoever will, might take advantage of God’s indescribably wondrous grace and mercy by taking heed to and obeying the things which the apostles taught to the members of the early Church (and which continue to remain applicable, even to the present time).
You also write - “Another problem is that this elusive, theoretical, fully united "true church" of today almost certainly doesn't really exist.” It is with deep feelings of sadness that I am compelled to admit to the soundness of this statement. Indeed, it is perhaps the foremost “failure” of the modern-day Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal Church (which is, in my opinion, the “remnant” of the early Church which we read about in the New Testament), for its ministerial leadership simply has been grossly remiss in recognizing, or acknowledging, the harm which has been wrought by the presence of “divisions” among them. This abominable condition continues its damaging effectiveness in that it hinders, impedes, and otherwise prevents it from exercising the same traits of excellence as those of the early Church we read about in the New Testament. And so, my friend, your statement (as sad as it is for me to say this) is also true - “If it did, we'd all know about it, and it wouldn't have stayed tiny all through the centuries. It would actually work, in its commission to spread the gospel.”
With regards to your final statement - “Signs and wonders would follow it. Its people would do greater works than those of Jesus. It would get it right” you can rest assured that this will happen. The prophetic words of Daniel 11:32 makes it explicitly clear that there is to arrive a moment in the future (and this perhaps even sooner than one might venture to even imagine), when “the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.”
It is my hope that the things which I have written here will enable you to better understand my beliefs about these matters.
And so it is, this is why I was prompted, in my initial posting, to respond to your recognition that "divisions" among members of the present-day Church (because of differences about such things as facial hair on men; the wearing of wristwatches/wedding bands; the length of women's skirts/dresses; etc), represents such significance. Indeed, because we today have become so engrossed in such matters, the primary focus for the presence of the Church in the world has been severely neglected. I say this to its shame!
This is strictly my opinion, and to which perhaps even many of my fellow Christians would not readily agree.
Thank you again, Lafon, for your well considered responses.
Here's a question for you: is it possible for the church to achieve (before it's too late) unity?
I look at the disputes over this and that doctrine (and I'm sure I haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg), and it is perfectly understandable why they exist: the Bible is not clear! Some argue that it is clear in the important doctrines, but I disagree even with that. Is salvation important? Healing? Women in ministry? Even if the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal Church is the true church, ignoring all the other claims to churchhood , none of those doctrines enjoy complete agreement.
You may have read my somewhat TIC series, "What You Believe", and I have found a number of things (ten, so far ) over which there is a degree of unity, but even then, the details (some of which are very important!) are always up for "discussion", as you well know!
Anyway, my answer to the question above is "It would take a miracle".
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
"Is it possible for the church to achieve (before it's too late) unity?
No, Timmy, I do not believe that "it's too late" for this to occur, but the truth of the matter is (in my learned opinion, at least), it simply "ain't gonna happen!" Why? Well, I suppose that the major problem which prevents its occurrence is none other than "human nature."
No one wants to humble themselves by admitting that they are wrong about something. Everyone wants to be right, and this is something which can be easily seen by doing nothing more than reading the things which many post on AFF. One believes this, while another opposes and embraces something quite the opposite. "Divisions," right? You got it! And therein lies the problem, but again, while there might be many who will admit to its presence, few, if any, are willing to humble themselves and admit that they are wrong about something, and this even when presented with indisputable scriptural evidence which shows it to be so!
Remember.... Jesus, as well as the apostle Paul, warned about the damaging effects of a "little leaven" (i.e., false doctrines/teachings). This simply implies that it only requires a small amount of error to thoroughly corrupt, and therein render null and void, an entire doctrine. But how many do truly pause to consider whether such conditions exist, or even pay the proper attention which such things deserve even when they are discovered? Sadly, I feel compelled to say that the number of people who are even willing to do this is also small.
And so, again, I say that this is why I am so concerned when I detect "divisions" among Christians, regardless of what such ”divisions” might entail. This comes as no surprise to me, of course, for it was none other than Christ Jesus who warned - ”Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come, but woe to that man by whom such offences come.” (Matthew 18:7 & Luke 17:1)
In closing I am forced to pause and ponder this question: How is it possible for the One True Church to adequately carry out its God-given task upon the earth during these perilous times, when it permits (unwittingly or knowingly) ”divisions” to continue its damaging effect upon it?
Yes, this abominable condition will be corrected, but not until it has done its damage, and therein cause many to stand ashamed before the coming judgment seat of Christ because of their failure to identify and eradicate those things which prevail among them that have wrought "divisions."
Timmy, I would also add that simply because there exists such widespread "disagreement" amongst members of even the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal Church concerning the issue of whether the Bible is clear about things, as you suggest; this fact should not, and in fact, does not mean that your assertion is factual truth.
It is my contention that either the Bible is entirely true, else I am compelled to discard it and then go in search of a more perfect document which contains all of the facts about life, death, and the afterlife. And I simply do not believe that such a document exists, that is apart from the Bible! For this reason I am compelled to place all of my trust and confidence in the determination of what is truth by reliance exclusively upon the Bible.
This is also why I have stated that we must establish it as the exclusive and final determining factor ("Standard").
"Is it possible for the church to achieve (before it's too late) unity?
No, Timmy, I do not believe that "it's too late" for this to occur, but the truth of the matter is (in my learned opinion, at least), it simply "ain't gonna happen!" Why? Well, I suppose that the major problem which prevents its occurrence is none other than "human nature."
No one wants to humble themselves by admitting that they are wrong about something. Everyone wants to be right, and this is something which can be easily seen by doing nothing more than reading the things which many post on AFF. One believes this, while another opposes and embraces something quite the opposite. "Divisions," right? You got it! And therein lies the problem, but again, while there might be many who will admit to its presence, few, if any, are willing to humble themselves and admit that they are wrong about something, and this even when presented with indisputable scriptural evidence which shows it to be so!
Remember.... Jesus, as well as the apostle Paul, warned about the damaging effects of a "little leaven" (i.e., false doctrines/teachings). This simply implies that it only requires a small amount of error to thoroughly corrupt, and therein render null and void, an entire doctrine. But how many do truly pause to consider whether such conditions exist, or even pay the proper attention which such things deserve even when they are discovered? Sadly, I feel compelled to say that the number of people who are even willing to do this is also small.
And so, again, I say that this is why I am so concerned when I detect "divisions" among Christians, regardless of what such ”divisions” might entail. This comes as no surprise to me, of course, for it was none other than Christ Jesus who warned - ”Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come, but woe to that man by whom such offences come.” (Matthew 18:7 & Luke 17:1)
In closing I am forced to pause and ponder this question: How is it possible for the One True Church to adequately carry out its God-given task upon the earth during these perilous times, when it permits (unwittingly or knowingly) ”divisions” to continue its damaging effect upon it?
Yes, this abominable condition will be corrected, but not until it has done its damage, and therein cause many to stand ashamed before the coming judgment seat of Christ because of their failure to identify and eradicate those things which prevail among them that have wrought "divisions."
Great post! But I do ask, with open and honest heart, how do you define the "One True Church?" There are so many different Oneness Pentecostal Churches. The UPCI, in many cases, proclaims itself as the One True Church. Then there is the ALJC (oneness), The Tulsa group, (don't remember their call letters) they are oneness. And that's just a few of the many organizations. There are independent oneness groups all across the country more strict than the UPCI in many cases. ??? One True Church where art thou? ???? I haven't even gotten to the "quote" Trinity "unquote" groups that the oneness agree have the Holy Ghost. Does God really give them His Holy Ghost, (and I believe He does) if they are not a part of the One True Church?
Just thinking out loud!
Been Thinkin
Been Thinkin
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"From the time you're born, 'til you ride in the hearse, there ain't nothing bad that couldn't be worse!"
LIFE: Some days you're the dog and some days you're the hydrant!
I have ... Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia! The fear of long words.
"Prediction is very hard, especially about the future." - Yogi Berra
"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave in reflection." - Thomas Paine
Timmy, I would also add that simply because there exists such widespread "disagreement" amongst members of even the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal Church concerning the issue of whether the Bible is clear about things, as you suggest; this fact should not, and in fact, does not mean that your assertion is factual truth.
It is my contention that either the Bible is entirely true, else I am compelled to discard it and then go in search of a more perfect document which contains all of the facts about life, death, and the afterlife. And I simply do not believe that such a document exists, that is apart from the Bible! For this reason I am compelled to place all of my trust and confidence in the determination of what is truth by reliance exclusively upon the Bible.
This is also why I have stated that we must establish it as the exclusive and final determining factor ("Standard").
You disagree that it is unclear?
You seem to be tying the Bible's clarity with the Bible's accuracy. It's true, therefore it is clear. Is that what you are saying?
If the existence of disagreements is not proof that it is unclear, what explains the disagreements? Take an issue about which there is a dispute. If there are, say, two versions of a doctrine (most have way more than two, I think!), and if the truth is clear, what does that say about the side who holds to the wrong view? Are they dishonest? Some have said as much, here on AFF. They say if you are honest in your search, the Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
No, Timmy, I am quite confident that you will NOT "forever remain agnostic." In fact, I don't think you are truly agnostic even now! Does that surprise you? Well, it shouldn't, for if it were actually true that you are agnostic, then (IMHO) you would never display such interest in spiritual things as you do. This very fact is encouraging to me, for I believe that there exists hope for you after all.
No, Timmy, I am quite confident that you will NOT "forever remain agnostic." In fact, I don't think you are truly agnostic even now! Does that surprise you? Well, it shouldn't, for if it were actually true that you are agnostic, then (IMHO) you would never display such interest in spiritual things as you do. This very fact is encouraging to me, for I believe that there exists hope for you after all.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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