Who's Your Next President?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Again you miss the point, seeing that you're bound by biological concepts. Spiritually (remember we're Christians not doctors or scientists) all things originate with the creator, not the creation.

Haha...that's kinda funny when you consider that I said BIBLICALLY SPEAKING God says he formed us IN THE WOMB....I was not refering to a scientist. BTW what was the point I missed?

While biology can tell us when something is living "materially", the life itself, the intangible and eternal soul of a man begins in the hands of God (an anthropomorphism of course) and is embodied in the natural when sperm and egg meet. The meeting of sperm and egg do not create the intangible and eternal soul of a man...that originates with God on the spiritual plane. Life technically begins and originates in the spiritual. Carnal minds always focus on the natural, science, biology, evolution, etc. But creation, life, and existence begins in God.

Is it really me or YOU that missed the point? You seem to have just confirmed the very words I said..GOD formed us in the WOMB. God is the author of our existence.

So I propose that life doesn't begin at conception...unless that "conception" is the "conceptualization" in the eternal mind of God before biological conception and meets the biological conception at the point when sperm and egg meet.

We are talking about physical life...living organisms...BTW are you a Mormon?

Man is more than a physical biological thing. Man is body, soul, and spirit.

And please note, God's formation of man in the womb isn't instantaneous...it's a nine month process.

Nobody said man was only a physical biological thing...I fear you read WAY too much into what was posted

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Biblically speaking God says he formed us in the womb...not in the ovary sack or the testicles.....

Also note the theology of the verse without falling into naturalistic biological thinking...

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

"Life" begins and ends in God, the mind of God, the power of God's creative conceptualization. Not cell division. The suit is not the man...the biology is not the life. The biology is the shell of the life that originates from God. If "life" begins at conception, men and women are the authors and creators of "life". Wrong answer. "Life" begins before biological conception in God.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Haha...that's kinda funny when you consider that I said BIBLICALLY SPEAKING God says he formed us IN THE WOMB....I was not refering to a scientist. BTW what was the point I missed?

First, you didn't quote Bible, you paraphrased a clause of a text. That text also points to the eternal mind of God where life and identity originates. You're restricting it to "biological science".

Is it really me or YOU that missed the point? You seem to have just confirmed the very words I said..GOD formed us in the WOMB. God is the author of our existence.

God formed this mortal "shell" in the womb, the "life" originates in God and presses from eternity into time to be embodied, develop, and then born. We're talking about LIFE not this shell that is only animated by the life within.

We are talking about physical life...living organisms...BTW are you a Mormon?

I know you're talking about physical or biological life. That's my point. I believe there's more to this subject than what biology tells us. Life originates in the eternal mind of the creator in eternity. We are creations, not the results of a biological process.

And no, I'm not Mormon. Apostolic Pentecostal here. Are you trying to offend me or did you really think I was Mormon?

Nobody said man was only a physical biological thing...I fear you read WAY too much into what was posted

I'm just presenting another dimension of this subject because everyone is talking like science defines life, biology defines existence, etc. That isn't a Biblical worldview. Life begins in God...not cells.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Also note the theology of the verse without falling into naturalistic biological thinking...

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

"Life" begins and ends in God, the mind of God, the power of God's creative conceptualization. Not cell division. The suit is not the man...the biology is not the life. The biology is the shell of the life that originates from God. If "life" begins at conception, men and women are the authors and creators of "life". Wrong answer. "Life" begins before biological conception in God.

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

First, you didn't quote Bible, you paraphrased a clause of a text. That text also points to the eternal mind of God where life and identity originates. You're restricting it to "biological science".



God formed this mortal "shell" in the womb, the "life" originates in God and presses from eternity into time to be embodied, develop, and then born. We're talking about LIFE not this shell that is only animated by the life within.



I know you're talking about physical or biological life. That's my point. I believe there's more to this subject than what biology tells us. Life originates in the eternal mind of the creator in eternity. We are creations, not the results of a biological process.

And no, I'm not Mormon. Apostolic Pentecostal here. Are you trying to offend me or did you really think I was Mormon?



I'm just presenting another dimension of this subject because everyone is talking like science defines life, biology defines existence, etc. That isn't a Biblical worldview. Life begins in God...not cells.

The point WAS about abortion and the fact that said unborn child is a human LIFE...if not in the eyes of the world in the eyes of God. Are you refuting that?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The point WAS about abortion and the fact that said unborn child is a human LIFE...if not in the eyes of the world in the eyes of God. Are you refuting that?

Bro Prax, I just get frustrated when people talk about defining "life" and they go back and forth about biology and no body mentions God. I believe that life originates at his fingertips in eternity, not on the cellular level of conception. I just wanted to bring this point into the equation. I know I can use some sharp debate tactics, but I want you to know I luv ya Prax. You're a good man.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Bro Prax, I just get frustrated when people talk about defining "life" and they go back and forth about biology and no body mentions God. I believe that life originates at his fingertips in eternity, not on the cellular level of conception. I just wanted to bring this point into the equation. I know I can use some sharp debate tactics, but I want you to know I luv ya Prax. You're a good man.

First of all I did not bring up the subject. I did not bring up the idea of WHEN life begins according to "scientific" assertions BUT I did speak to that. If you have a problem with it perhaps you should address those that brought it up.

I then pointed out GOD is the author of life and that life seems to begin IN the womb. It was asserted that said fetus was NOT a life form until a certain point in time and they spoke from a naturalistic position and I used both their naturualistic thinking AND the bible to refute that claim.

The issue is Abortion....which in another topic you want to discuss and here while I am trying to show someone else that their justification FOR abortion is wrong you come along and seem as though you are trying to undermine that effort by arguing some other point.

Lastly you said "and not mention God" but in fact I was the one that DID mention God so why you singled me out is beyond me and a little frustrating

Originally Posted by Praxeas

First of all I did not bring up the subject. I did not bring up the idea of WHEN life begins according to "scientific" assertions BUT I did speak to that. If you have a problem with it perhaps you should address those that brought it up.

I then pointed out GOD is the author of life and that life seems to begin IN the womb. It was asserted that said fetus was NOT a life form until a certain point in time and they spoke from a naturalistic position and I used both their naturualistic thinking AND the bible to refute that claim.

The issue is Abortion....which in another topic you want to discuss and here while I am trying to show someone else that their justification FOR abortion is wrong you come along and seem as though you are trying to undermine that effort by arguing some other point.

Lastly you said "and not mention God" but in fact I was the one that DID mention God so why you singled me out is beyond me and a little frustrating

Prax my man, go back to my original comments (post #222) and tell me...were they addressed to you specifically, or were my comments just an open contribution to the discussion? And then please tell me...who made issue of the comments I made in their post (#223), without regards to the spiritual nature of the thoughts I proposed?

Fact #1- I wasn't talking to you specifically.
Fact #2- You made the remarks that intended to sweep away my thoughts by reference to ovaries and testicles (something I was obviously not talking about) and the insinuation of my position not being biblical.

If you really wanted to focus on your conversation about another's justification for abortion you shouldn't have side stepped to take a sniper shot at my comments.

Luv ya bro.
Now, have a nice day.

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No we are talking about LIFE FORMS and what constitutes life..a living life form. As I pointed out a fetus is a human in one stage of development. He or she does not cease to be a human as an infant, teen or later on in life. They are all just different stages of human development.

If a man's heart stops beating

4. The uniform determination of death. The National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws in 1980 formulated the Uniform Determination of Death Act. It states that: "An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem is dead. A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards." This definition was approved by the American Medical Association in 1980 and by the American Bar Association in 1981.

Death. When the body is no more than a corpse, is when all bodily functions cease particularly the heart and brain permanently. Otherwise those humans that got his heart to beating again were God.

Praxeas,

So it's the medical community's and your determination when Jesus bowed his head and gave up the ghost, that He was still alive?

According to you and the medical community, the body is alive till the brain ceases to function. Also, how long does it take for a brain to cease all functions after death?


WHY DO DOCTORS DELCARE FOLKS DEAD WHEN THE HEART STOPS?


Here's a quote from Dr. Titus:

"There are no known relevant physical differences between clinical death and final brain death, and that claims about possible other, physical or nonphysical relevant differences remain purely speculative. "

Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4

Praxeas,

So it's the medical community's and your determination when Jesus bowed his head and gave up the ghost, that He was still alive?

According to you and the medical community, the bod is alive till the brain ceases to function. Also, how long doesn't it take a brain to cease all functions after death?


WHY DO DOCTORS DELCARE FOLKS DEAD WHEN THE HEART STOPS?


Here's a quote from Dr. Titus:
"There are no known relevant physical differences between clinical death and final brain death, and that claims about possible other, physical or nonphysical relevant differences remain purely speculative. "

People aren't dead when their heart stops.

But really, on subject. Here's what I think... medical science is an imperfect human tool. In many ways it's incapable of addressing the definition of life. Therefore our concepts should be biblical as opposed to scientific.

Now as it applies to abortion...just as science has it's limitations in dealing with life definitions, government has it's limits. I don't believe that the government is capable of properly addressing the abortion issue. That's why I believe it may be wise to leave the issue in the hands of individual women. As the Church, instead of criminalizing women and empowering government to make women breed rather they like it or not, we do well to educate women regarding God's Holy Word and how much of a sin abortion is. We need to inform them about the guilt, shame, and anguish they'll experience for the rest of their lives for doing such a terrible thing. Then we have to be prepared to actually help those women who are in need or who are in a crisis pregnancy.

Essentially only the Gospel flowing in a free society can properly address the issue.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Prax my man, go back to my original comments (post #222) and tell me...were they addressed to you specifically, or were my comments just an open contribution to the discussion? And then please tell me...who made issue of the comments I made in their post (#223), without regards to the spiritual nature of the thoughts I proposed?

Fact #1- I wasn't talking to you specifically.
Fact #2- You made the remarks that intended to sweep away my thoughts by reference to ovaries and testicles (something I was obviously not talking about) and the insinuation of my position not being biblical.

If you really wanted to focus on your conversation about another's justification for abortion you shouldn't have side stepped to take a sniper shot at my comments.

Luv ya bro.
Now, have a nice day.

I don't know if you realize this but I have been talking to 1Cor and my points have been MAINLY to him and what he has been asserting