Show Me the Money

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I've quoted you twice so far. What was the point in YOU mentioning the pastor is boring and unable to attract a following if it was not related to the question you asked?

The point was so that nobody would entertain the idea that this was a very active church and there was massive growth and that therefore maybe just maybe Joe Preacher was worth an 8 million lump sum....my scenario removes the ability for anyone to think that someone pastoring a church just might be worth that much simply because of the size and activity of the church....and so now we are just left with the question at hand....should there be a salary cap or should some lucky pastors be making 8 million or more for recruiting one Daddi Warbucks (or in your case, recruited by a member of the church)....so now the question plainly for you, Prax, is do you think anyone should be paid 8 million for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ? If so, what is your reasoning? If not, then something is really wrong with church governance as we see it today.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

The point was so that nobody would entertain the idea that this was a very active church and there was massive growth and that therefore maybe just maybe Joe Preacher was worth an 8 million lump sum....my scenario removes the ability for anyone to think that someone pastoring a church just might be worth that much simply because of the size and activity of the church....and so now we are just left with the question at hand....should there be a salary cap or should some lucky pastors be making 8 million or more for recruiting one Daddi Warbucks (or in your case, recruited by a member of the church)....so now the question plainly for you, Prax, is do you think anyone should be paid 8 million for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ? If so, what is your reasoning? If not, then something is really wrong with church governance as we see it today.

No I don't think so...however with you I am a little hesitant to say that least the reply is something about my pre-conceived notion about people with a lot of money. I think the Pastor or a church board should use most of that money for other things.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Dan,

I just read this post and have a few questions. ....


Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

I understand this passage above to be speaking to the whole nation of Israel not just the Levites as quoted in your post.

Context ... Context ... Context ...

It is my opinion the best way to study and understand the Word of God ... if I read Malachi 3:8-10 in the dark ... it can seem that God is rebuking the people ... but careful reading of Chapters 1 and 2 and the verses prior to this passage give a clear picture of the reason for God's wrath.

Below is an article that discusses the book of Malachi in context. You don't have to agree w/ the approach or tone of the writer ... but he does make a compelling argument for who has awakened God's anger in this portion of scripture ....

Quite frankly, I don't want to chase a red herring in this thread ... we can disagree on whether the entire nation is included in God's rebuke and why ...

but it is very obvious that Malachi is speaking to the Levites throughout this book and part of God's reason for his wrath can be found in Malachi 3:5 ... He did not like "oppression of the widows and fatherless" ... undoubtedly a reference to the poor administration of the tithe allocated to help them.

I would rather discuss the facts .... Among them being that the tithe in the OT were not exclusively to be the reward for one Levite for his work... it had multi-purposes ... something many modern preachers are conveniently refusing to acknowledge.

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Source: http://411tithesofferings.411-cashfl...terpreted.html


One of the main Scripture these peddlers of God’s word use to support their doctrine of demanding and extorting "tithes and offerings" from those who are seeking God's favor is Malachi 3:

Let’s look at one of the main Scripture that all these self-appointed gospel peddlers love to use: (those who peddle the word of God for profit and gain - see 2 Corinthians 2:17 below), these tithes and offerings extorters, ministers who follow the doctrine of Balaam (Jude 1:11); who claim these verses in Malachi 3 give them the authority to extort "tithes and offerings" from the people that are seeking to be saved from this evil and adulterous world; and that is Malachi chapter 3.
But, first let us look at Malachi chapters 1 and 2 to see who the word "man" refers to in verse 8 of Malachi 3 when God asks the question, these gospel peddlers love to quote when they want more of your money in their control; and that is "Will a man rob God? They never tell you who God is speaking to in this Scripture (they just speak about it in such a way to lead you to believe that God was speaking to you the member of their human organizations) - they have deceived you into believing God was speaking to you rather than to them - more specifically God is speaking to the Levites and the priesthood of Aaron and not the people giving the tithes and offerings to them.

These Levites and priests behavior had caused the people to be discouraged in that by saying the "Lord’s table is contemptible" (much like those today who take your tithes and offerings to buy for themselves the best of goods and services while refusing to help those who are not a member of their church); they were making the people give defected and sick animals for God as tithes and offerings; and taking the best of the livestock and grain offerings for themselves to sell for profit. Nor were these priests of Levi keeping God’s command to the Levites in Deuteronomy 26:12-13, where God said to them… "12 When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year--the year of tithing--and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled, 13 then you shall say before the LORD your God: "I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them""

The Levites were commanded to receive tithes and offerings from the people; however, in the third year they were to share this tithe given to them by those who had livestock and land to tithe on with "the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow". In Malachi 3, these "sons of Levi" were not during this because they did not fear God.The below listed Scriptures tell us what most of the ministers today are about - these are the tele-evangelists, the super-ministers, and the mega-church ministers who believe building bigger churches are more important than taking care of the needs of the widows and the poor and needy in their community.

Notice, the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul says, "many" not a few ministers are peddling God's word for profit from your "tithes and offerings"

• 2 Corinthians 2:17... "For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ."
  

Here again in Jude 1, the Scripture points us to those who "run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit". They live in mansions and very costly temples while claiming to serve God and His Christ Jesus. Many of you know these super ministers and their up and coming students of their greed (see Rev. 2:14).

• Jude 1:11... "Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah."

[SDG]

continued ...


In Malachi 1:6-8, it is shown thatGod were speaking to the leaders (the Levites and Priests of Israel) who were defrauding and robbing God of the tithes and offerings not the people who brought the tithes to them (the people continued to give and tithe to them even while these corrupt Levites and priests stole from God - and the widows, the poor and strangers in the land). These priests were not giving God His due honor before the people by taking care of those widows and orphans in need nor were they sacrificing the best of the grain and livestock to God rather they were keeping the best for themselves to sell and increase their own wealth from the things tithed and offered by those who were required to tithe. Just think of the glory our God in heaven would receive if these so-called "tithes and offerings" ministers actually followed these old Covenant instructions by helping the poor and needy with your "tithes and offerings" money instead of helping themselves.


Today, we as Christians are called upon in the New Testament (or Covenant) which requires much more in giving and helping those in need than the Old Testament. For, we as Christians shall be judged by our treatment of those in need and those well to due Christians will be judged by what they did with their money (Matthew 19:16-24; Luke 12:33; Luke 19:1-10 and Matthew 25 - more on this later).

Malachi 1:6-8... "6 A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?" says the LORD Almighty. "It is you, O priests, who show contempt for my name. "But you ask, 'How have we shown contempt for your name?' 7 "You place defiled food on my altar. "But you ask, 'How have we defiled you?' "By saying that the LORD's table is contemptible. 8 When you bring blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong? When you sacrifice crippled or diseased animals, is that not wrong? Try offering them to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you?" says the LORD Almighty"

Notice in verse 6 of Malachi chapter one God says, "It is you, O priests, who show contempt for My Name"; there you have it, it were the priests not the people, who were not respecting God as a Father and Master (if they were sons or servants then they did not show it, making them neither as for as God was concern). God says these priests showed Him contempt instead of honor and "place defiled food on"(v. 7) His altar (this phrase give us more proof that God was talking to the Levitical priesthood because they were the only ones commanded by God to offer the sacrifices on the altar).

These priests said to the people, "the Lord’s table is contemptible"(v. 7) causing the "whole nation" to be cursed because of their evil deeds (Malachi 3:9); this gives us further Scripture proof that it were the priests and not, I repeat not the people who God is talking about in Malachi 3. Because only the priests sins brought sin on the nation, the sins of the people were atoned for by the priests; therefore, it was not possible for the people not tithing to bring a curse on the whole nation. So, I say to you today where these self-appointed gospel peddlers claim the people were robbing God - its not the people but the Levites and the priests who were robbing God - read it for yourself. This makes Malachi a prophecy for these same ministers who claim the right of extracting "tithes and offerings" from you because they are during the same thing these "sons of Levi" were doing; and that is keeping the better part of your money for themselves and their pet projects.
Now, when we move to Malachi chapter two we see God is still speaking to the priests and not the people as so many Christians have been led to believe by their leaders, these money lovers and self-proclaimed "tithes and offerings" collectors who have declared themselves to be God. For they say to those who they demand money from, that if you don't give to them you are robbing God. Thereby, claiming if you want to give to God then you must give to them and no one else.
These ministers peddles the word of God for profit and financial gain - teaching for doctrine the traditions of men and doctrines of Satan concerning tithes and offerings; something God have not command them, and He have not given them this authority to demand money from you under the new Covenant. They are misusing the Holy Scripture to fill their pockets and "their churches" bank accounts. They are "living it up" on the word of God rather than being content, and helping those in need. These ministers are refusing to preach the word without cost. The Holy Spirit speaks of these ministers in 2 Peter 3:16… where it is said, these ministers have used Malachi 3 as "untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scripture". Yes, some twist the Scripture through ignorance and some through deceit and evil motives, and they all resist sound doctrine.

[SDG]

continued ...

Malachi 2:1-9... Admonition for the Priests(Notice here God through the prophet speaks of the the admonish of the Priests not, I repeat not the people)
"1 And now this admonition is for you, O priests. 2 If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name," says the LORD Almighty, "I will send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have already cursed them, because you have not set your heart to honor me. 3 "Because of you I will rebuke your descendants; I will spread on your faces the offal from your festival sacrifices, and you will be carried off with it. 4 And you will know that I have sent you this admonition so that my covenant with Levi may continue," says the LORD Almighty. 5 "My covenant was with him, a covenant of life and peace, and I gave them to him; this called for reverence and he revered me and stood in awe of my name. 6 True instruction was in his mouth and nothing false was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and turned many from sin. 7 "For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction-because he is the messenger of the LORD Almighty. 8 But you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble; you have violated the covenant with Levi," says the LORD Almighty. 9 "So I have caused you to be despised and humiliated before all the people, because you have not followed my ways but have shown partiality in matters of the law."

Notice verse 1 "this admonition is for you, O priests", and verse 4 where God says, He is sending these evil priests this admonition because of His covenant with Levi that it may continue. Then in verses 5 and 6 God speaks of His covenant with Levi and how Levi "stood in awe" of His Name and gave Him "reverence and revered" His Holy Name (this is why ministers should refuse to be called reverend - for only God deserves to be called reverend - yet, since this sin is so common among the churches of Babylon the Great these ministers refuses all sound reasoning in this matter even resisting the Holy Spirit). Next, God praises Levi for giving "true instruction" and "nothing false was found on his lips"; but these priests in verses 7 and 8 are bearing false witness about the word of God nor are they preserving knowledge (you would expect men of God to give sound doctrine).
They were causing many to stumble because of their teaching; and of these "sons of Levi" God says, they "have violated" (v. 8) His covenant between Him and Levi. God also says in verse 9 that He have caused them "to be despised and humiliated before all the people", because they did not follow His ways and showed "partiality in matters of the law". (We see and hear this today when the men refuse to go to these churches (most them are filled with women) and others even accuse these lovers of money of living high on the hog while their churchgoer can barely pay their rent and feed their family).

And for those of you who are faithful givers of tithes, you will be able to see this when these gospel peddlers only help those who give to their churches (if you are not a member then you of out of luck), and only those who tithe to them are allowed to speak in their churches. Yet, these gospel peddlers wonder out loud in their sermons why people despise them for their behavior; and they still believe you should reverend them when they have not honored and revered God nor kept His laws.

Now, let us re-read Malachi 3 again, where it speaks of these priests (today, they are commonly called ministers or some other names which I will not mention nor should they use them because it blasphemes God Holy Name) robbing God - we will start in verse one, and I want you to pay particular attention to verses 3-5, and 9; where we see the phrases "sons of Levi", "that they may offer to the Lord an offering in righteousness", "then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem", "those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans", and "even this whole nation".

You know the more I study what God really says about "tithes and offerings"; the more I wish these gospel peddlers would rightly divide God’s word for a change and give God His honor and reverence among the people of this world. For many of our poor widows and fatherless children would be cared for with the tithe money they collect, and God would receive His honor and be reverend. Yet, these ministers uses your "tithes and offerings" for "their pet projects". Oh yea, they will definitely declare to you the word of God when they stand to profit from it, but never are they truthful when it may take money out of their pockets and their "human organizations" aka "their churches".

Malachi 3:1-7... The Coming Messenger of God... "1 Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderers' soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. 4 "Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem Will be pleasant to the LORD, As in the days of old, As in former years. 5 And I will come near you for judgment; I will be a swift witness Against sorcerers, Against adulterers, Against perjurers, Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans, And against those who turn away an alien--Because they do not fear Me," Says the LORD of hosts. 6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. 7 Yet from the days of your fathers You have gone away from My ordinances And have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you," Says the LORD of hosts. "But you said, "In what way shall we return?'"

Do Not Rob [Note: This is another subtitle added by the translators which implies that these verses are speaking about people in general rather the priests - the sons of Levi who collected the tithes.]

[SDG]

continued ...

Malachi 3:8-12... "8 Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, "In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. 9 You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. 10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this," Says the LORD of hosts, "If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it. 11 "And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground, Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field," Says the LORD of hosts; 12 And all nations will call you blessed, For you will be a delightful land," Says the LORD of hosts."

Now, we see here God were speaking to those who were of the Levitical priesthood (Malachi 1:6-8; Malachi 2:1,4,7-8; Malachi 3:3-5). God in Malachi chapter 3 gives us the time of Christ correction of these sons of Levi for their sins against Him in verses 3:1-3. Notice the phrase "I send My messenger"(v. 3:1) this phrase refers to John the Baptist (Malachi 4:5-6 and Matthew 17:9-13) who came and prepared the way for Christ Jesus; and his message was "to bear witness of the Light" (John 1:7) and "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4) so people would receive Christ as the One who Saves (Luke 7:26-30).

Next, we have the phrase, "the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant" (v. 3:1) this phrase refers to Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior (the second Adam) who came to pay the penalty for the sin of Adam and of all Mankind; and to make another Covenant (a New Covenant) with the people whom God would call, a chosen people of priests for His new nation (Hebrews 8 and 1 Peter 2:9-10). So you see, we have the time frame for the purifying of the "sons of Levi" (the priesthood) as the Holy Spirit says of the Messenger of the Covenant, "He will purify the sons of Levi, and purge them" (v. 3:3).

Christ Jesus, as the Messenger of the Covenant have already purged these "sons of Levi" and purified those who would be called and chosen by God.

The priesthood has changed, and Christ is the High Priest of this royal priesthood (Hebrews 2:1;4:14-15; and Hebrews chapters 5-10 of which I will speak more of later).When we get to the phrase, "who can endure the day of His coming?" (v. 3:2), this further identify the arrival of Christ to purify and purge the priesthood (sons of Levi) that "they may offer to the LORD an offering in righteousness" (v. 3:3). I ask this question are there "sons of Levi" offering up "an offering in righteousness" today?

Are not the priests of the New Covenant royal priesthood offering up offerings to God and His Christ in righteousness today? Malachi is the last book of the old Covenant because this closes out the old nation of Israel for the bringing in of the new Covenant as it is written in the book of Hebrews.

Now, let us go back to these priests and sons of Levi during Malachi time. They were denying the portions of the tithes which belonged to the "widows and orphans" and the alien (every three years they were to share the tithes they received with needy) in the land of Israel (Deut. 14:27-29 and Mal. 3:5). Having already proved from Malachi 1 and 2 that the priests, the sons of Levi were the ones who are said to have been robbing God of His "tithes and offerings" in Malachi 3:8. If you still do not see this at this stage of my paper, then I pray that you please ask God for understanding with a humble and teachable heart, and He give you understanding in this too.Furthermore, this can be seen clearly in these verses in the book of Malachi where God says of these corrupt "sons of Levi"; "you place defiled food on My altar", you say "the LORD's table is contemptible" (Mal. 1:7), and "you bring blind animals for sacrifice" (Mal. 1:8). Then, we come to Malachi 3 where God speaks of purifying and purging the sons of Levi, and that God will come near to them for judgment.

He "will be a swift witness against... those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans, and against those who turn away an alien" (Mal. 3:5). As you can see God says, these "sons of Levi" were receiving the "tithes and offerings" from the people, but they were taking the best for themselves (for the Spirit says they exploited wage earners) and refusing to give to and support the widows, orphans, and aliens in the land.

Now then, I say to you, the people were bringing their tithes and offerings to these corrupt priests; but they were teaching the people to bring "crippled or diseased animals" to sacrifice while still requiring them to bring the required tithe and offering for them to profit from (Isaiah 3:14 and Amos 4:1). These priests and the sons of Levi were robbing God.So now, we come to the question; if the sons of Levi, the priests were robbing God then who represented God in Malachi 3 and on this planet? For those of you who are asking this question because you believed the priests and the "sons of Levi" represented God in Malachi, please re-read Malachi 2:8-9; 3:4-5.

If you are asking this question because you are thinking that these human organizations called churches or your minister represent God then here is a truth you can trust, they do not. And those ministers who claim their human organizations are God's house then they are wrong nor do they represent God. First of all, your body is God's house (His temple); if indeed you have the His Spirit and the Spirit of His Christ living in you. And further proof that these church houses of this world are not God's houses is this, that throughout God's word He compares and speaks of Himself as being among the poor and oppress of the land. The poor and needy of the ones God says He stands up for and takes up their cause - what you do to them you do to God (Psalm 12:5, Proverbs 14:31 and Matthew 25:35-46). These Scriptures tell us that God lives among the poor and needy of this world.

[SDG]

Now ... I must admit I am befuddled that many of the modern day Levites who support getting ALL OF THE TITHE for their own personal consumption ... have given little exegesis for why they feel they are entitled to it all ... not surprised, however.

I may not have graduated w/ honors , as many have, from the Verbal Bean Skool of Theology, in Backwoods, Appalachia ... but I do know that scripture harmonizes and that when studying it ... context is a key to understanding it.

It is contemptible for those who choose to perpetuate the myth that the NT teaches a compulsory tithe by teaching this OT practice is for today yet will not apply the principles of management as it was mandated in the OT by God, himself...

Certainly, the Levites received various types of tithes. We could argue how many ... or whether it was done in yearly cycles ... all that is irrelevant ....

Facts about the purposes of OT tithing are not being taught by those who seek to manipulate their flocks by beating them up w/ selective theology ... these dogmatic despots/lords over theocratic fiefdoms want their serfs to believe in a system but will not administrate it in the manner that it was designed for by God, himself.

Tithing, in patriarchal times, was an act or expression of worship. Tithing is not again discussed in the Pentateuch until the time of Moses — with the establishment of a priesthood in Israel. Mosaic law required the Israelites to pay tithes to the Levites, who did not own land, the usual means of support (Numbers 18:21-24). The Levites, in turn, gave one tenth of what they received to the Aaronic priesthood (verses 25-32).


Let's do the math ... these are the tithes received by the Levites, who were the civil and religious servants in a theocratic nation, and worked tirelessly 24/7 ... they then turned around and gave a tenth of the tithe [1/10, or 1%] to the Aaronic priests, or the equivalent of our modern day pastor.

Guess what? the Aaronic priests never got the entire tithe ...EVER !!!

We've also established that some of the tithes went back to the people during feasts and some of it went to the poor and needy.

WHERE ARE THE PURVEYORS OF TRUTH ... WHEN IT COMES TO THE TRUTH ABOUT OT TITHING???

Although the Levites received the tithe, it did not belong to them. The tithe belonged to God. It was "holy" (verse 32), sanctified for God's use and purpose. God was simply defining how his tithe was to be used.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Now ... I must admit I am befuddled that many of the modern day Levites who support getting ALL OF THE TITHE for their own personal consumption ... have given little exegesis for why they feel they are entitled to it all ... not surprised, however.

I may not have graduated w/ honors , as many have, from the Verbal Bean Skool of Theology, in Backwoods, Appalachia ... but I do know that scripture harmonizes and that when studying it ... context is a key to understanding it.

It is contemptible for those who choose to perpetuate the myth that the NT teaches a compulsory tithe by teaching this OT practice is for today yet will not apply the principles of management as it was mandated in the OT by God, himself...

Certainly, the Levites received various types of tithes. We could argue how many ... or whether it was done in yearly cycles ... all that is irrelevant ....

Facts about the purposes of OT tithing are not being taught by those who seek to manipulate their flocks by beating them up w/ selective theology ... these dogmatic despots/lords over theocratic fiefdoms want their serfs to believe in a system but will not administrate it in the manner that it was designed for by God, himself.

Tithing, in patriarchal times, was an act or expression of worship. Tithing is not again discussed in the Pentateuch until the time of Moses — with the establishment of a priesthood in Israel. Mosaic law required the Israelites to pay tithes to the Levites, who did not own land, the usual means of support (Numbers 18:21-24). The Levites, in turn, gave one tenth of what they received to the Aaronic priesthood (verses 25-32).


Let's do the math ... these are the tithes received by the Levites, who were the civil and religious servants in a theocratic nation, and worked tirelessly 24/7 ... they then turned around and gave a tenth of the tithe [1/10, or 1%] to the Aaronic priests, or the equivalent of our modern day pastor.

Guess what? the Aaronic priests never got the entire tithe ...EVER !!!

We've also established that some of the tithes went back to the people during feasts and some of it went to the poor and needy.

WHERE ARE THE PURVEYORS OF TRUTH ... WHEN IT COMES TO THE TRUTH ABOUT OT TITHING???

Although the Levites received the tithe, it did not belong to them. The tithe belonged to God. It was "holy" (verse 32), sanctified for God's use and purpose. God was simply defining how his tithe was to be used.

Thank you, HeadMaster Daniel, for sharing that amazing lesson, what profundity, indeed!



And thank you for stepping up and not being afraid to rock the boat! I can almost imagine the multitudes of those that would want to silence this message throughout the churches of America and abroad.


Consider this:

Ironically, Christians are taught to let the Spirit guide their walk in Christ, yet they are given rules to guide them when it comes to their giving. Goodness and kindness, we are instructed by Paul, are identifying traits of the fruit of the Spirit. Yet, Galatians 5:22-23 makes it very clear that the fruit of the Spirit CANNOT be regulated because against such there is NO LAW!!!!!!! Consequently, the old covenant tithing ritual should not be used to GOVERN Spirit-led giving!!! Today, it is impossible to fully walk in the Spirit in the area of giving while following MODIFIED rules and regulations of old covenant tithing!

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Now ... I must admit I am befuddled that many of the modern day Levites who support getting ALL OF THE TITHE for their own personal consumption ... have given little exegesis for why they feel they are entitled to it all ... not surprised, however.

I may not have graduated w/ honors , as many have, from the Verbal Bean Skool of Theology, in Backwoods, Appalachia ... but I do know that scripture harmonizes and that when studying it ... context is a key to understanding it.

It is contemptible for those who choose to perpetuate the myth that the NT teaches a compulsory tithe by teaching this OT practice is for today yet will not apply the principles of management as it was mandated in the OT by God, himself...

Certainly, the Levites received various types of tithes. We could argue how many ... or whether it was done in yearly cycles ... all that is irrelevant ....

Facts about the purposes of OT tithing are not being taught by those who seek to manipulate their flocks by beating them up w/ selective theology ... these dogmatic despots/lords over theocratic fiefdoms want their serfs to believe in a system but will not administrate it in the manner that it was designed for by God, himself.

Tithing, in patriarchal times, was an act or expression of worship. Tithing is not again discussed in the Pentateuch until the time of Moses — with the establishment of a priesthood in Israel. Mosaic law required the Israelites to pay tithes to the Levites, who did not own land, the usual means of support (Numbers 18:21-24). The Levites, in turn, gave one tenth of what they received to the Aaronic priesthood (verses 25-32).


Let's do the math ... these are the tithes received by the Levites, who were the civil and religious servants in a theocratic nation, and worked tirelessly 24/7 ... they then turned around and gave a tenth of the tithe [1/10, or 1%] to the Aaronic priests, or the equivalent of our modern day pastor.

Guess what? the Aaronic priests never got the entire tithe ...EVER !!!

We've also established that some of the tithes went back to the people during feasts and some of it went to the poor and needy.

WHERE ARE THE PURVEYORS OF TRUTH ... WHEN IT COMES TO THE TRUTH ABOUT OT TITHING???

Although the Levites received the tithe, it did not belong to them. The tithe belonged to God. It was "holy" (verse 32), sanctified for God's use and purpose. God was simply defining how his tithe was to be used.

And levites don't even exist today. Another interesting point is jesus came from the tribe of Judah and it would be unlawful for a person from the tribe of Judah to receive tithes when it was comanded to give to Levites.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I don' think that the "tithes belonging to the pastor" the way most do it today is what the Lord desires for His servants. Once again, the pastors are the chief servants, not the "kings." The Kings were rich, the priests, it seems, were not to be. There was a dividing line between kings and priests and it was not to be crossed by the other.

It is very convenient for those who feel that they deserve the tithe to interpret the OT the way they want for their purposes and sometimes selfish desires.

In both churches I have pastored, I worked a full time job to be able to afford to preach until I could receive a sufficient salary. i.e, when the income of the church AFTER expenses could pay me. I have NEVER placed my lifestyle on the backs of the people who give faithfully. I have loaned the church money from my personal credit cards when the offerings were short of what we needed. I RARELY take up special offerings and when I share a need before the church, they know it is a need and it is always met.

I believe it is completely wrong and immoral for a pastor, say, of a 5000 member church to believe that he is entitled to ALL of the tithes. Biblically, the tithes would go to ALL those on staff to take care of the "Levites." It is NOT that the entire tithe belongs to the senior pastor and everyone else, including the church, must fend for themselves. This philosophy is so self serving, that to me, it is sickening.

Our church board has repeatedly come to me over the years and almost demanded that I take a pay raise. I have tried very hard to not drain our finances with my salary.

If more pastors would exercise self control and keep their personal debt under control, they wouldn't have to tap so heavily into the church's finances. My wife and I have 1 house payment and 1 car payment. We own three cars and have a very nice home. We are bargain shoppers and if something is not a "deal" we don't buy it.

If pastors take ALL the tithes in their churches, they should be the TOP givers of their entire congregations. I would not be ashamed to publish my personal giving since I have pastored this church and I wouldn't DARE publish anyone else's. The more people see a pastor's example of giving (not taking) the more they will follow that example and will also trust the man of God as well. This is not rocket science.

The lack of understanding of this simple "serve" principle is one of the things that is crippling the Apostolic movement. Far too many "lord" their leadership over the people.

MOW,

Thank you for posting this. You didn't have to. And once again, your honesty and selflessness before God is commendable and has not gone without notice in His sight as evidenced by your current situation. You are a good shepherd of those God has given you to oversee.

My desire is to know what the Bible says on this subject. I believe the ministry receives the tithes and is accountable to God for how the money that God has given them is spent.

How do we know Joe Preacher who received the 8 million dollars in tithes did not give it all away to missions? Why should we judge him before he gets the money as though he is not worthy to receive it or he will consume it upon his own lusts? If the tithes belong to the ministry then give it to them and pray for them that God will give them wisdom to spend it wisely as He has done with MOW.