Standards

[shazeep]

well put, imo

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Good Samaritan, I love you bro. I can feel your tender spirit and I love it. We still might have some disagreements, but you're alright in my book.




Honestly, it depends. Is the Christian on vacation with money they saved up to play with so that it doesn't negatively affect their budget? Some of the entertainment in Vegas us a bit risqué, but in most cases a Christian can avoid that if it offends their spiritual sensibilities. I think it's a matter of personal conviction.



I've gone to a bar with my grandfather. Been to the VA and sat at the bar with him too. I've had a couple beers with family on my dad's side and the guys from work on occasion. Applebee's has a bar, nearly every restaurant has a bar. I've sat at the bar and ordered food because they had the best view of a game. Some churches have "theology on tap" kind of ministry where a Christian bar tender (yes, there are Christian bar tenders) will allow a church to cordon off a portion of the facility and host a meeting where the speaker addresses more mature topics and even takes questions from those attending. Anyone is free to listen or ask questions.



I believe the Bible mentions the "thigh" being "nakedness", so anything above the knee and below the hips would qualify.

Exodus 28:42
And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:

Of course, the "thigh" is also a Hebrew euphemism for a woman's more intimate area.

I'd say the issue is time and place. In mixed company... it might be too much skin. If it is family or just girls, there isn't a real issue. Also, those that I know who wear bikinis also wear beach robes or shirts that cover them when they aren't in the water. I live in Ohio. I've rarely had any issue with standards relating to swimwear. But if I lived in Florida or California, I might feel differently. So, again, it can be an area of personal conviction.



I think the Bible is clear that we aren't to cuss:

Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 12:34-37 - 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Romans 3:14 - Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:

Ephesians 4:29 - Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Ephesians 5:4 - Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

James 3:10 - Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

So, I believe the Bible is clear against cursing. Remember, Isaiah was a man with unclean lips, evidently he had some struggles with cursing. However, God purified his mouth when the angel touched his lips with a burning coal. No wiggle room on cursing. One's only real option is to confess it and seek to control their tongue.



I think standards often separate us from the world as it relates to fashion and recreation. However, what really separates us from the world... and moves people... is love. I've attended some legalistic churches in my past. I look back and ask myself about how many times during those years I volunteered to work in a food pantry, a soup kitchen, a clothing closet, a homeless shelter, a battered women's shelter, etc. Never. However, the house church I've been in fellowship with is big on volunteer service to those in need. Me and a few others (we call ourselves "helping hands") like volunteering at the Dayton Gospel Mission. We prepare lunch, serve lunch, and clean up. It's an all day affair. I did dishes for several hours one day. I was wet, soggy, sore, and overheated (they don't have air conditioning). But it was one of the most sacred thing's I've done. Love. Love for God and love for others. When we see someone hurting, in pain, oppressed, persecuted, treated unjustly... do we seek to ease their pain and/or stand up for them if necessary? Are we a voice of love and peace in a world filled with hatred and violence?

To me... those things mentioned above matter far more than if a woman wears a bikini or if me and the lady love decide to go to Vegas for vacation. The focus on standards often leaves us majoring in minors.

Also, the focus on standards can cause spiritual immaturity. People learn to live by the "convictions" of the pastor, the organization, or the church body they attend. They don't learn exactly what their own personal convictions are. And their convictions therefore are repressed. They don't get the spiritual growth through experience and assessment. I believe that the Holy Spirit leads and guides us. For example, the Holy Spirit has convicted me against owning a weapon. However, I don't teach that everyone should not own weapons, and I do support the 2nd Amendment. But for me, it would be sin. I see thing wrong with eating pork or shrimp. Nor do I feel convicted about Sabbath or holy day. However, anything dedicated to an idol, I will not touch. I don't see anything wrong with a glass of wine, but I'd never drink in front of a brother who has a struggle with alcoholism... even though he should have already had that demon cast out and be free.

We have to learn to walk in the Spirit. This means we all need to learn how to hear the Spirit lead and guide us in what is right and wrong for us as individuals. A blanket list of standards stunts this growth and makes cookie cutter Christians as one might make mannequins on an assembly line.

So standards aren't really all that. I'd rather see people grow into the individuals God desires them to be... and see them serve God and their fellow man in a spirit of love and humility. This is what separates us from the world. Every religion in the world has a dress code, dietary code, special days, etc. Yes, the religions of this world are FULL of "standards". So, frankly, a Christianity with a focus on "standards" is a worldly Christianity. It isn't a Spirit led servant Christianity.

Aquilla, I too have much respect for you. It is impressive to me how you our able to balance so many vices. I don't mean that as a slur. Each of the the examples I gave just isn't a good example in the southern Bible belt I live. Each of those things would be very harmful to your witness.

Gambling has destroyed relatives of mine. It brought them from being a self made millionaire, to being at retirement age barely getting by. It is not forbidden in the scripture, but the environment and people associated with it are not a group to company. I have heard that a large number of casino's where run by the mob. Most importantly I am just convicted.

Drinking alcohol has been one of the worst vices for the American people until this drug culture has come along. The Bible doesn't forbid it all together, but in the area I live in most of the Baptist would even blast you for it. lol. It would offend too many and bring into bondage too many to make it acceptable for our local church's membership.

Cussing isn't explicitly mentioned. You brought up cursing in scripture, but to me personally those two are different. Calling someone an insulting name is explicitly forbidden, but that isn't necessarily always cuss words. I am with you on the points you make, but if a person wanted to hold you to the jot and tittle they could easily make a valid arguement.

As for your thigh being nakedness. I believe that, but I think that it could be argued since the scripture you referenced was in the OT law concerning the priest garments. each of these things can be debated, but I will still teach that they would be a sin.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You are a very disciplined person. For you to enjoy the many entertainments that you feel o.k. with and to be as well versed as you are is impressive. I have been a student of the Bible for the past 15 years of my life and still have a lot to learn. I know from experience that it takes much time to absorb the little bit I know.

There are many things that may be lawfull, but they aren't expedient for a Christian. I don't decide what is heaven or hell, God does. As has already been said, God will judge us by our heart and not necessarily our standards. When we stand before Him I don't think any can say well the scripture didn't explicitly say that. As was also said, we must walk in the Spirit. We should have the Word in our hearts if we have the Holy Ghost. So there will be no excuses, God's Spirit is supposed to be what leads us.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Having personal convictions, and living out those convictions sincerely and humbly before the Lord and others.... is a powerful thing.

Having a "standard" that the group you are a part of believes in, and you only keep the "standard" to maintain your status in the group, is where the road parts ways. Your act of keeping the "standard" actually becomes a stench in the nostrils of God, if it is only done to please man, while having a heart that is full of evil.

So, I don't bash those who keep and hold a standard... if they are doing it as unto the Lord. I respect that, and actually all those who call themselves Christian should have a mode of separation from the evil that is present around them.

But I do have a problem when a certain standard becomes tied in with salvation, because that is when the spirit of the Pharisees can become prevalent - which would be a group of people following a list of rules that they hope covers up their evil hearts.

How can two walk together unless they agree. Churches have the right to hold standards for membership and positions. If those things don't matter to a person then I guess a person really doesn't have to worry about it. We all will give an answer to God for ourself.

[barry72]

Those of you women that don't wear pants and feel that it is biblically incorrect...do you wear pajama pants when you go to bed?

How about women that won't wear make up, but have a membership at their neighborhood tanning salon.

Are T-shirts men's clothing?

[Sean]

You forgot to ask if they shower in long dresses Barry

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

How can two walk together unless they agree. Churches have the right to hold standards for membership and positions. If those things don't matter to a person then I guess a person really doesn't have to worry about it. We all will give an answer to God for ourself.

No problem with churches having a certain protocol for those in leadership to follow, but when it is tied into salvation, it is then it becomes a problem.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

No problem with churches having a certain protocol for those in leadership to follow, but when it is tied into salvation, it is then it becomes a problem.

I don't think we should be telling anyone their going to hell anyways. We can warn them about hell, but I don't think we should be making predictions about someone else's eternity. If people only serve God for fear of hell it probably will not last long. I got in church for a better life, and not a better eternity (that is just icing on the cake). When people find it a joy to walk with Jesus there is no standards needed. The purpose of laws are not for those that are lawful, but for the lawless. If anything goes then people could come in and make faulty conversions and cause a lot of confusion. On the flop side we have some pharisee attitudes in the church.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I don't think we should be telling anyone their going to hell anyways. We can warn them about hell, but I don't think we should be making predictions about someone else's eternity. If people only serve God for fear of hell it probably will not last long. I got in church for a better life, and not a better eternity (that is just icing on the cake). When people find it a joy to walk with Jesus there is no standards needed. The purpose of laws are not for those that are lawful, but for the lawless. If anything goes then people could come in and make faulty conversions and cause a lot of confusion. On the flop side we have some pharisee attitudes in the church.

You've got that right. Fear does not save. Falling in love with Jesus is what truly saves and having faith. If folks are held by fear to do the things they think they should, it is only covering up the outside, but the inside is still a mess. But when love takes hold, and faith takes root, you will be willing to do whatever the Lord convicts you of, and asks you to do. This is the difference.

Many folks, because of fear, do the list of things they think they need to do, hoping this will grant them salvation. But it is not until that fear is replaced with the love of God in a heart that has fallen in love with Christ, will the inside be changed along with the outside.

Fear is a tool of the enemy, and something man also uses to build his kingdom. When you find someone who has truly surrendered their heart and life to the Lord, they can follow Christ out of love. Perfect love casteth out fear! Love is the most powerful force in the world. Fear tries to usurp love in every way... but if love is allowed to prevail, it is then that true discipleship of Christ takes place in the life of a believer.

[Fionn mac Cumh]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

How can two walk together unless they agree. Churches have the right to hold standards for membership and positions. If those things don't matter to a person then I guess a person really doesn't have to worry about it. We all will give an answer to God for ourself.

No they dont have a right to. Acts 2:38 is the thing you need to obey to be a member of THE church. Doesnt the bible say something about adding to and taking away from the word?

[good samaritan]

Acts 2:38 is how to be born again. If that is the only depth of our walk with God then we are going to come up short. Some pentecostals are nothing more than easy believers. Acts 2:38 is not a ticket to heaven, but instead it is the beginning of a walk with God. Our salvation comes through Jesus Christ and not just Acts 2:38. I fear that many who have submitted to Acts 2:38 are going to hear depart from me. If we walk with God we will not bicker about high standards of morality, but instead in a loving way we are going to live the best life we can.