left upci yr ago and still messed up

[PastorBobHall]

Something to think about:

- God alone is Holy. (Holy One)
- His name is 'Holy' Psa.111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.
- we are commanded to obey & become 'righteous'

What are holiness standards? There truly are none because God makes the final decision to anoint with His Spirit 'accepting' obedience on our part. This is why there are so many differences culturally, in the church globally, yet God is working & blessing in such a variety of places.

Scripture: Acts 15 what a perfect example of cultural differences (Jews vs. Greeks) & God shows to leave each other alone in the differences. James concludes, Stop criticizing or forcing others to be like you, whomsoever God loves & accepts, we are to love & accept.

These types of differences are for testing our obedience (in the local church) & test our love towards other congregations. When we obey correctly & have the right spirit of love, God accepts us 'making us holy unto the Lord''.

Conclusion:.
Ministers are to create the best spiritual environment possible & instruction to live righteous - the saints obey. God makes us holy - not rules or people forcing us. Free will is behind it all - it has always been about free will & many leaders were not taught or did not learn 'how' to pastor with love respecting free will, so they resort to carnal 'rules & bad spirits''. Strive to prove obedient with God's love. Many can do this in a UPC church even in spite of abusive leaders.

If we are called to be holy as He is holy, (1Pet.1:15-16) & to die daily, maybe a way to describe 'how' does a person become holy is this way

Sorry if this got too lengthy. So many problems are brought up in this post & the LORD has led us into wonderful peace & love to help many who suffered these things.

God, loves you,

Bro. Hall
BAC.

[Krt]

Originally Posted by PastorBobHall

Something to think about:

- God alone is Holy. (Holy One)
- His name is 'Holy' Psa.111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.
- we are commanded to obey & become 'righteous'

What are holiness standards? There truly are none because God makes the final decision to anoint with His Spirit 'accepting' obedience on our part. This is why there are so many differences culturally, in the church globally, yet God is working & blessing in such a variety of places.

Scripture: Acts 15 what a perfect example of cultural differences (Jews vs. Greeks) & God shows to leave each other alone in the differences. James concludes, Stop criticizing or forcing others to be like you, whomsoever God loves & accepts, we are to love & accept.

These types of differences are for testing our obedience (in the local church) & test our love towards other congregations. When we obey correctly & have the right spirit of love, God accepts us 'making us holy unto the Lord''.

Conclusion:.
Ministers are to create the best spiritual environment possible & instruction to live righteous - the saints obey. God makes us holy - not rules or people forcing us. Free will is behind it all - it has always been about free will & many leaders were not taught or did not learn 'how' to pastor with love respecting free will, so they resort to carnal 'rules & bad spirits''. Strive to prove obedient with God's love. Many can do this in a UPC church even in spite of abusive leaders.

If we are called to be holy as He is holy, (1Pet.1:15-16) & to die daily, maybe a way to describe 'how' does a person become holy is this way

Sorry if this got too lengthy. So many problems are brought up in this post & the LORD has led us into wonderful peace & love to help many who suffered these things.

God, loves you,

Bro. Hall
BAC.

Thank You for all the kind words. Said very well. God is still working in me and sorting things out.

[PastorBobHall]

Someone asked me where I am from & what standards I am against, My church life has been in the Western Canadian District, I live in Alberta.

What about standards? The answer is 'none' - I am not against any. God wants to see obedience in us, no matter what the standard. In the garden they had one rule & no one has ever had to abide by that standard since - don't eat from a certain tree. The fruit didn't hurt them - disobeying God was the sin.

There are many wonderful churches all over the world & many do a few things differently, follow rules or standards other places may not. The exercise for our Godliness is to be obedient where we attend. That can show a great fear when some people avoid the structure of church God established because they 'don't agree with the pastor's standards'. Looks like the wolves influencing some sheep to cut themselves out of the flock.

Obedience is the key & the ministry & church body must have standards to represent Christ. The error comes when a standard is called a sin when it is not, causing criticism of other churches & abuse of authority from controlling people. Well, it causes a lot of trouble.

What must I do to be saved? Find a truth church to get the help in staying prayed through & full of the Holy Ghost. Whatever standards they have, be mature enough to understand that God is watching for obedience in all things. There are many times God calls upon us to 'obey Him' to help reach the lost, work a miracle through us, speak through us, etc. He cannot use & save people who do not learn to be obedient to the Spirit.

Rom.8:14 For as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God. If you are not obedient to Him - you won't follow Him - you will be lost.

There are 2 problems: the treatment we receive from abusive leaders & the obedience unto God in standards & giving. Don't let the one destroy the other.

It would be my greatest joy to help people who have been hurt by the confusion & frustration of dealing with standards, to understand them better, and see them dig in & get full of God! Salvation is smooth, easy, thrilling, exciting, when you live in God's will for your life. You deserve it & I encourage everyone I speak with, to get the victory over the past & live victorious in the present. God has shown me a way to destroy those bad memories once & for all.

God bless
Pastor Hall

[Krt]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

So you were in a church, enjoying the worship and presence of God, but you disagreed with the "standards".

Then you leave that church, have not been to church since, feel that God is now silent and isn't speaking to you.

I guess I am just the only crazy one who thinks that maybe, just maybe, the answer to your problem is to go back to church and talk to your Pastor. Let him know you don't agree with standards, but you would rather be in church feeling God than out of church. I know that is just insane advice for this forum since the MO of most here is to do nothing but trash the UPC and traditional OP churches, but you sounded like you were happier when you were in church. So go back.

Or just stay out of church and assume it's ok to not go to church, ok to have bitter feelings about the UPC and those associated withit and ok to just make up your own religion and beliefs on the fly as long as you have others who will say it's ok.

My husband says I need to come here and give responses... It isn't just stds., there is more than that. I do not believe God was silent to punish me, and IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BITTERNESS, PEOPLE ARE NOT ALWAYS LEAVING BECAUSE OF THAT! I apologize, I should have clarified more in my first post...

1) I am not saying its my own issues and I am seeking God with humility if I am the problem... but one of my issues is every service is usually that you aren't enough for God, do more, give more, worship more, attend more, and please don't quote and take that the wrong way, I seek God for what His will is for me and worship Him, but they push and push like even your best isn't enough. And the style, the shouting which I guess is the excitement for God, I am excited too but not expressive much and even in my marriage my husband wishes I would show more emotion/expression... which I am working on, but after 10 yrs I am still uncomfortable with how preachers have to yelll so much... I receive more from others teachings and accept the rebuke even without the yelling.... Honestly I was uncomfortable when I went to a baseball game and everyone was standing, cheering, etc and I wasn't... so maybe it is me. At church I would lift my hands in worship and my heart be full of adoration and I'd love to worship that way but when the preacher acts like something is wrong with you for not shouting enough or loud enough or jumping enough... I leave church feeling so bad as a christian, and times I would be obedient to the pastor and jump, he'd say jump for joy, jump for your victory... sorry I did not change from that...
This weekend we listened to a webcast live and the preacher would say things like, "OH I wish I had someone to preach to... " and in my spirit that felt awful. (someone please tell me what they are doing... the minister isn't happy with the lack of feedback clapping and amening?) I am absorbing all he is saying... I am not an expressive person to clap and amen... but if I don't then I am not measuring up to be the christian I should be... do you know what I mean? I hope I worded it correctly...

2) I was hungering for so much more. Even now my husband says we get fed by the other online churches and UPCI is more for staying in doctrine...
We just came across MarsHill.com with Mike Driscoll and we have grown so much in our daily walks with God... I said before I loved listening to Charles Stanley teach... John MacArthur, and many more... not for doctrine but christian living... I don't have 'itchy ears", the messages they give rebuke also but they do it as a gentle shepherd not how I feel in UPCI being beaten with the rod... that is just how I feel and if I am too sensitive then pray God helps me to not receive it that way.

3) I also have issues about tithing... I tithed and gave beyond my means. I believed the Bible, give and it will be given unto you.... so many messages on giving sacrificially and pledges... while I myself have a medical bill come up or car repair, can't pay for it and use my credit card... and I am a very frugal person, I spend money wisely. UPCI prides on being like the early church yet when it comes to money they don't follow how they sold their possessions and had all in common. I believe God meant for us to take care of each other not some have fancy houses, cars, Iphones, yet another can't pay their heat bill. This is NOT out of bitterness I am just re reading the bible with fresh eyes and questions come up such as that... Even when they tithed in the O.T. if they were hungry on their journey they could eat their tithe. And remember when David ate of the bread that was for the priests... and when Jesus picked the grain on the sabbath... religious people would be so legalistic about that. You can kill the spirit with the letter of the law, I am not saying all of this very elequently I am sure someone else on here can reiterate on it that knows what I am meaning. My point is church is so hung up on receiving tithes and giving yet they aren't turning around tending to the flock in their needs, distributing to the saints as I see Jesus teaches in the Bible.

4) When I stopped going to church I started reading the bible with fresh eyes and I read it in its context to the chapter and culture and wish church would do that too... In Romans I read where the emphasis was to walk in love and grace and not cause another to stumble... God showed me if I don't have a problem going to the beach (I love the ocean) and dress modestly, I can go for myself but if I bring my husband and cause him to lust after the girls in skimpy bikinis then I am sinning. (MY church preaches on NO mixed bathing). I adore looking at God's creation the vast open ocean and meditate on Him there. There are alot of rules like a strict parent to protect us, I get it, but sometimes it can get a bit much like you can't have your own personal relationship and guidance with Jesus...

Does that explain? Its not just stds, its not bitterness, its alot... and some of it may be my own issues to work out...

thank you to everyone praying for us and giving supportive feedback, I really do appreciate it... God has brought me to a new place and I am seeking Him for discernment, truth, protection from error... if I am wrong I want Him to reveal error and deception in me.

[corvet786c]

Originally Posted by Krt

My husband says I need to come here and give responses... It isn't just stds., there is more than that. I do not believe God was silent to punish me, and IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BITTERNESS, PEOPLE ARE NOT ALWAYS LEAVING BECAUSE OF THAT! I apologize, I should have clarified more in my first post...

1) I am not saying its my own issues and I am seeking God with humility if I am the problem... but one of my issues is every service is usually that you aren't enough for God, do more, give more, worship more, attend more, and please don't quote and take that the wrong way, I seek God for what His will is for me and worship Him, but they push and push like even your best isn't enough. And the style, the shouting which I guess is the excitement for God, I am excited too but not expressive much and even in my marriage my husband wishes I would show more emotion/expression... which I am working on, but after 10 yrs I am still uncomfortable with how preachers have to yelll so much... I receive more from others teachings and accept the rebuke even without the yelling.... Honestly I was uncomfortable when I went to a baseball game and everyone was standing, cheering, etc and I wasn't... so maybe it is me. At church I would lift my hands in worship and my heart be full of adoration and I'd love to worship that way but when the preacher acts like something is wrong with you for not shouting enough or loud enough or jumping enough... I leave church feeling so bad as a christian, and times I would be obedient to the pastor and jump, he'd say jump for joy, jump for your victory... sorry I did not change from that...
This weekend we listened to a webcast live and the preacher would say things like, "OH I wish I had someone to preach to... " and in my spirit that felt awful. (someone please tell me what they are doing... the minister isn't happy with the lack of feedback clapping and amening?) I am absorbing all he is saying... I am not an expressive person to clap and amen... but if I don't then I am not measuring up to be the christian I should be... do you know what I mean? I hope I worded it correctly...

2) I was hungering for so much more. Even now my husband says we get fed by the other online churches and UPCI is more for staying in doctrine...
We just came across MarsHill.com with Mike Driscoll and we have grown so much in our daily walks with God... I said before I loved listening to Charles Stanley teach... John MacArthur, and many more... not for doctrine but christian living... I don't have 'itchy ears", the messages they give rebuke also but they do it as a gentle shepherd not how I feel in UPCI being beaten with the rod... that is just how I feel and if I am too sensitive then pray God helps me to not receive it that way.

3) I also have issues about tithing... I tithed and gave beyond my means. I believed the Bible, give and it will be given unto you.... so many messages on giving sacrificially and pledges... while I myself have a medical bill come up or car repair, can't pay for it and use my credit card... and I am a very frugal person, I spend money wisely. UPCI prides on being like the early church yet when it comes to money they don't follow how they sold their possessions and had all in common. I believe God meant for us to take care of each other not some have fancy houses, cars, Iphones, yet another can't pay their heat bill. This is NOT out of bitterness I am just re reading the bible with fresh eyes and questions come up such as that... Even when they tithed in the O.T. if they were hungry on their journey they could eat their tithe. And remember when David ate of the bread that was for the priests... and when Jesus picked the grain on the sabbath... religious people would be so legalistic about that. You can kill the spirit with the letter of the law, I am not saying all of this very elequently I am sure someone else on here can reiterate on it that knows what I am meaning. My point is church is so hung up on receiving tithes and giving yet they aren't turning around tending to the flock in their needs, distributing to the saints as I see Jesus teaches in the Bible.

4) When I stopped going to church I started reading the bible with fresh eyes and I read it in its context to the chapter and culture and wish church would do that too... In Romans I read where the emphasis was to walk in love and grace and not cause another to stumble... God showed me if I don't have a problem going to the beach (I love the ocean) and dress modestly, I can go for myself but if I bring my husband and cause him to lust after the girls in skimpy bikinis then I am sinning. (MY church preaches on NO mixed bathing). I adore looking at God's creation the vast open ocean and meditate on Him there. There are alot of rules like a strict parent to protect us, I get it, but sometimes it can get a bit much like you can't have your own personal relationship and guidance with Jesus...

Does that explain? Its not just stds, its not bitterness, its alot... and some of it may be my own issues to work out...

thank you to everyone praying for us and giving supportive feedback, I really do appreciate it... God has brought me to a new place and I am seeking Him for discernment, truth, protection from error... if I am wrong I want Him to reveal error and deception in me.

WOW I would like to get others responses to this as well?

[Krt]

I said Mike Driscoll it should be Mark Driscoll..

[Margies3]

Krt, I think you expressed yourself VERY well. And whether we agree or not, we need to listen. Because you do make some very valid points that should be considered (not saying I disagree, by the way!)

[HolyFire]

You are 100% right Krt. The Word of God divides soul and human spirit. When ministry preaches for response (flesh) and preaches to the soul (whats REALLY in the balance) you get carnality - as it produces little foundation. But when preached Word reaches a human spirit you get FAITH and those seeds of the Word are planted on good ground!

Case in point (bad example) - Hell/repent message that only reaches soul produces fear of hell. A truly anointed message on same subject reaching the human spirit produces conviction!

I ask God nearly everyday in prayer that when I pray for someone, preach, teach, witness, share a story, etc., to let it minister to their spirit - to free their spirit from all chains and deception, to loose the love of Christ and break down all barriers between them.

There's a famine for teaching in AP churches, that's why many are the way they are. Preachers push for loyalty to an ideal instead of anchoring you to Him.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Except your assuming that people who are "messed up" by the church are messed up because of small petty things things and minor disagreements with leadership. In fact, people are usually "messed up" because of deep psychological damage that was done over years. This isn't something that a chorus of "Give it all to Jesus!" will fix. I personally still get the cold sweats (not in a good way) when many specific songs are played during song service and to this day (25+ years later) I make a point of arriving at church (when I actually go) AFTER the singing is done. If I'm by myself I usually give the preacher 5, maybe 10, minutes to say something with substance. If people are shouting and he begins with "....oh and I was GLAD when they said onto ME, let us GO into the HOUSE of the LORD! Haaaa haaa haaaaaa!" -I'm outta there.

(Timmy, please feel free to change word emphasis in that last sentence. )

I appreciate what you wrote here, RW. I went to church here a number of months back....it was a pretty liberal church and wouldn't you know, I went by accident on "Pentecost Sunday". I was so stressed out being there that when I left, my arms and shoulders and back ached for hours afterward. (No exaggeration.) This was not a Pentecostal church, it was just a church where I thought I would not be reminded of all that. But the fact it was Pentecost Sunday and they read Acts 2 and all that from the KJV.....it was like torture. Like salt rubbed into a deep wound. When you say "deep psychological damage done over the course of years" I can say, yes, definitely. I don't know that I will ever feel normal. I don't even know what normal is. I just tell myself this is the new normal for me. Some days, I grieve deeply over it although those days come father and farther between. It is incredibly annoying when I try to express that and the people outside the church are clueless (making me feel alienated) and the people in it or around it minimize it drastically.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I thought the RCC were the only ones who terrorized children. I was glad I did not have to go to church but once a week for 45 minutes.

I never felt terrorized in the RCC as a child. Perspectives are a funny thing.