Why I Left the UPC

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Charnock

The duplicity within much of the ministry of the UPC is striking.

There is an unhealthy focus on "holiness" but it's perfectly acceptable to lie.

I do not know any UPC ministers who truly agree with everything in the AOF.

Most UPC preachers watch Hollywood produced films, which is as big of a no-no as owning a TV. The majority of UPC preachers have Netflix, Vudu, or some other form of subscriber-based movie services. Many UPC preachers buy entire seasons of TV content.

Yet they all sign the affirmation statement.

Most UPC preachers follow organized sports.

Yet they sign the affirmation statement.

I could go on and on.

It's no wonder the org isn't growing. I highly doubt God is going to put His favor on a group that is so rife with hypocrisy.

Did this include you? Where you one of those lying hypocrites that signed the agreement but did not agree with everything?

Oh, BTW, the AOF is tame compared to what a lot of UPC pastors preach and force on their members

However here is the "Holiness" clause

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing or swimming, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Amanah

well, yeah, I guess that is what acutally happens . . . organized religion is messed up

Very true. But you see, "organized religion" covers everyone, and I mean everyone. No matter if your religion is represented by the organization of thousands of churches, or an organized group of people attending one church. What enters is the "pride of leadership". The spirit of pride that tells you, "YOU are right". Whether your a board of men over an organization, or one man who has walked away from an org because he believes that "he alone is right".

Organized religion is just a reflection of the spirit its built on.

[acjcpastor]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

So are you saying it's wrong to shave?

No more than a women who wears bifurcated garments for modesty sake.

[acjcpastor]

Now, let me clarify myself before you all go nuts on me. I don’t shave to be effeminate, if I did, that would be sinful. On the other hand, while I feel full liberty in Christ to grow a beard, if I grew one just to be spiteful to my apostolic brethren, then I think that would be sinful as well.

While there remain a few jobs where a man can’t wear a beard (like an airline pilot because the oxygen mask must seal to his face in an emergency) very few interviewers today would discount a job applicant because of facial hair. They’d know that they could be facing a discrimination lawsuit over the issue.

We the church are fishing in a whole different pond than our brothers and sisters were a generation ago. Not only that, but the fish have evolved and they don’t bite that same bait like they used to. That same guy today who would sue a potential employer for discrimination isn’t going to just shave off his beard to conform because you’re the pastor and you say so. People today want truth and they want to see it in black and white. If you can explain being clean shaven to him from the Word, more power to ya. But I ain’t going there cause I read more reasons to have a beard than to shave it off. That’s just the facts.

In the 1950 and even 60’s most women wore dresses. I’d say that all of the little girls I went to 1st grade with wouldn’t have been caught dead having to wear pants like a boy to school. For many ladies of that era, putting on slacks was a bold and daring move. And for some, it meant having to have a sinful attitude in order to even consider doing such a thing. For the same reasons why the apostolic movement took a stand against beards on men, they took a stand against pants on ladies. It was associated, even in a worldly society as being out there on the edge and any good conservative knows you ain’t supposed to go there. It was associated with rebellion, plain and simple.

However, here we are in 2011 and it just isn’t that plain and simple anymore. Most little girls going to 1st grade today haven’t ever put on a dress, never mind owned one. Nobody in “the world” today thinks of a women in slacks as being edgy or rebellious or “out there.” But there remains a generation of Apostolic ladies who took a stand years ago, based on a reasonable conviction of the time. And the same is true about men who took a stand against growing a beard.

I think we all need to apply the principle of Romans chapter 14, especially verses 13-21 today. If you ask me, this is the main reason why many of our apostolic sisters haven’t given all there skirts to the Goodwill and started wearing slacks. Is it really worth creating a church split over? Can’t I honor my brother or sister’s conviction without throwing my liberties in their face?

I pray the apostolic movement will someday mature beyond its petty-mindedness. We really need to be more mindful of our own attitudes when we start flaunting our liberties without regard for the “if, ands, and whys” of other peoples convictions.

I’ve probably written too much already but this is the bottom line; It grieves me to know of so many people over the years that have been pushed away from truth because we’ve allowed our arrogant attitudes, so contrary to the teaching of the apostles, to prevail. I pray that these men and women who say, “because I’m the pastor and that’s why” without having any biblical basis, will one day wake up and realize that they are going to have to answer to God for the damages they’ve done.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Did this include you? Where you one of those lying hypocrites that signed the agreement but did not agree with everything?

Oh, BTW, the AOF is tame compared to what a lot of UPC pastors preach and force on their members

However here is the "Holiness" clause

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing or swimming, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church

Yes.

[RandyWayne]

We the church are fishing in a whole different pond than our brothers and sisters were a generation ago. Not only that, but the fish have evolved and they don’t bite that same bait like they used to. That same guy today who would sue a potential employer for discrimination isn’t going to just shave off his beard to conform because you’re the pastor and you say so. People today want truth and they want to see it in black and white. If you can explain being clean shaven to him from the Word, more power to ya. But I ain’t going there cause I read more reasons to have a beard than to shave it off. That’s just the facts.

Good post acjcpastor. I would add just another thought. The biggest reason people are not following lockstep anymore is the internet. Before the net everyone was there own little island, afraid to speak out but now they learn that thousands think as they do and perhaps they are not the ones automatically in the wrong simply because they question their pastor or the organization in general.

It is truly the light of truth being shined under the fridge, which hasn't been touched in years. Amazing what gets startled!

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by acjcpastor

Now, let me clarify myself before you all go nuts on me. I don’t shave to be effeminate, if I did, that would be sinful. On the other hand, while I feel full liberty in Christ to grow a beard, if I grew one just to be spiteful to my apostolic brethren, then I think that would be sinful as well.

While there remain a few jobs where a man can’t wear a beard (like an airline pilot because the oxygen mask must seal to his face in an emergency) very few interviewers today would discount a job applicant because of facial hair. They’d know that they could be facing a discrimination lawsuit over the issue.

We the church are fishing in a whole different pond than our brothers and sisters were a generation ago. Not only that, but the fish have evolved and they don’t bite that same bait like they used to. That same guy today who would sue a potential employer for discrimination isn’t going to just shave off his beard to conform because you’re the pastor and you say so. People today want truth and they want to see it in black and white. If you can explain being clean shaven to him from the Word, more power to ya. But I ain’t going there cause I read more reasons to have a beard than to shave it off. That’s just the facts.

In the 1950 and even 60’s most women wore dresses. I’d say that all of the little girls I went to 1st grade with wouldn’t have been caught dead having to wear pants like a boy to school. For many ladies of that era, putting on slacks was a bold and daring move. And for some, it meant having to have a sinful attitude in order to even consider doing such a thing. For the same reasons why the apostolic movement took a stand against beards on men, they took a stand against pants on ladies. It was associated, even in a worldly society as being out there on the edge and any good conservative knows you ain’t supposed to go there. It was associated with rebellion, plain and simple.

However, here we are in 2011 and it just isn’t that plain and simple anymore. Most little girls going to 1st grade today haven’t ever put on a dress, never mind owned one. Nobody in “the world” today thinks of a women in slacks as being edgy or rebellious or “out there.” But there remains a generation of Apostolic ladies who took a stand years ago, based on a reasonable conviction of the time. And the same is true about men who took a stand against growing a beard.

I think we all need to apply the principle of Romans chapter 14, especially verses 13-21 today. If you ask me, this is the main reason why many of our apostolic sisters haven’t given all there skirts to the Goodwill and started wearing slacks. Is it really worth creating a church split over? Can’t I honor my brother or sister’s conviction without throwing my liberties in their face?

I pray the apostolic movement will someday mature beyond its petty-mindedness. We really need to be more mindful of our own attitudes when we start flaunting our liberties without regard for the “if, ands, and whys” of other peoples convictions.

I’ve probably written too much already but this is the bottom line; It grieves me to know of so many people over the years that have been pushed away from truth because we’ve allowed our arrogant attitudes, so contrary to the teaching of the apostles, to prevail. I pray that these men and women who say, “because I’m the pastor and that’s why” without having any biblical basis, will one day wake up and realize that they are going to have to answer to God for the damages they’ve done.

good post, thank you

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by scotty

Im not intellectual enough to comment on that thread, but please don't be discouraged, I study and gleen much from your post there with enthusiasm as well as most all of your studies.

Oh please do not think I referred to my thoughts alone, I just meant the issue of the cross gets little airtime. lol I am nothing.

[PASTOR'S WIFE]

I think I have read each post - possibly not every word but I would like to ask one question:
WILL SOMEONE GIVE ME THE SCRIPTURES THEY USE THAT IS AGAINST A BEARD?

Please not opinions but just scriptures. That is what I go by - not opinions.

Some of these posts are hilarious. I don't remember as a teenager in the ALJC hearing it preached on but I don't remember seeing beards or mustaches either.

ONE THING I HAVEN'T READ IN THE POSTS IS THE SCRIPTURE: TO NOT ADD TO OR TAKE AWAY FROM THE SCRIPTURE.

I also haven't read about women shaving their legs or underarms or maybe I have opened up another can of worms and this thread would be 100 pages instead of 25.

AGAIN, WILL SOMEONE GIVE ME THE SCRIPTURES - THAT IS ALL I WANT. This is probably my second or 3 post as I usually don't even sign in - just read other opinions but I was curious for the scriptures ONLY....

[Michael The Disciple]

There is no scripture about shaving beards so no one will be offering any. Its an Apostolic tradition.