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  #241  
Old 09-23-2007, 01:23 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Curious ... how 3 steppers disassociate themselves from this term. Praxeas, has stated, if I'm correct, that baptismal regeneration is the belief that one immediately receives the Holy Spirit after being water baptized.
Prax is correct. Water baptism without any faith, though, is the actual doctrine's core. Getting regenerated is receiving the Spirit. And that is what I said the doctrine proposes. The catholic church practices baptismal regeneration. Ask them. lol

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Originally Posted by spurgeon
I find that the great error which we have to contend with throughout England (and it is growing more and more) is one in direct opposition to my text. It is well known to you as the doctrine of baptismal regeneration [being born again through baptism].
That is just what I said the doctrine proposed.
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  #242  
Old 09-23-2007, 02:55 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Prax is correct. Water baptism without any faith, though, is the actual doctrine's core. Getting regenerated is receiving the Spirit. And that is what I said the doctrine proposes. The catholic church practices baptismal regeneration. Ask them. lol



That is just what I said the doctrine proposed.
You are correct. This is why Catholics and Martin Luther still baptized infants. They believed AT baptism, not just after baptism but AT baptism or during it the candidate is filled with the Holy Spirit by means of the baptism rite. Faith has nothing to do with it. In fact they have practiced forced baptisms in the past too, supposing that the act of baptism would save them..even those that did not really have faith. Regeneration is the function of the Spirit. So baptismal regeneration is the belief that baptism itself is the means of giving the Spirit and thus saving them at that moment.
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #243  
Old 09-23-2007, 04:30 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
You are correct. This is why Catholics and Martin Luther still baptized infants. They believed AT baptism, not just after baptism but AT baptism or during it the candidate is filled with the Holy Spirit by means of the baptism rite. Faith has nothing to do with it. In fact they have practiced forced baptisms in the past too, supposing that the act of baptism would save them..even those that did not really have faith. Regeneration is the function of the Spirit. So baptismal regeneration is the belief that baptism itself is the means of giving the Spirit and thus saving them at that moment.
I thought it was at Confirmation that Roman Catholics received the Holy Spirit. I was confirmed in first grade. I wore a cute little white dress and received a blessing from a Bishop with the laying on of hands. I didn't speak in tongues.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm
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  #244  
Old 09-23-2007, 11:59 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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You are right...

Here is what they say about baptism

This sacrament is the door of the Church of Christ and the entrance into a new life. We are reborn from the state of slaves of sin into the freedom of the Sons of God. Baptism incorporates us with Christ's mystical body and makes us partakers of all the privileges flowing from the redemptive act of the Church's Divine Founder. We shall now outline the principal effects of baptism.

(1) The Remission of All Sin, Original and Actual

This is clearly contained in the Bible. Thus we read (Acts 2:38): "Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call." We read also in the twenty-second chapter of the Acts of the Apostles (verse 16):
Be baptized, and wash away thy sins." St. Paul in the fifth chapter of his Epistle to the Ephesians beautifully represents the whole Church as being baptized and purified (5:25 sq.): "Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
The prophecy of Ezechiel (36:25) has also been understood of baptism: "I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness (inquinamentis), where the prophet is unquestionably speaking of moral defilements.

prescribed by which have been This is also the solemn teaching of the Church. In the profession of faithPope Innocent III for the Waldensians in 1210, we read: We believe that all sins are remitted in baptism, both original sin and those sinsvoluntarily committed." The Council of Trent (Sess. V., can. v) anathematizes whomsoever denies that the grace of Christ which is conferred in baptism does not remit the guilt of original sin; or asserts that everything which can truly and properly be called sin is not thereby taken away.

(In Gen., xiii) are classic: "If you transgress, you write unto yourself the handwriting [chirographum] of The same is taught by the Fathers. St. Justin Martyr (Apol., I, Ixvi) declares that in baptism we are created anew, that is, consequently, free from all stain of sin. St. Ambrose (De Myst., iii) says of baptism: "This is the water in which the flesh is submerged that all carnal sin may be washed away. Every transgression is there buried." Tertullian (De Bapt., vii) writes: "Baptism is a carnal act in as much as we are submerged in the water; but the effect is spiritual, for we are freed from our sins." The words of Origensin. But, behold, when you have once approached to the cross of Christ and to the grace of baptism, your handwriting is affixed to the cross and blotted out in the font of baptism." It is needless to multiply testimonies from the early ages of the Church. It is a point on which the Fathers are unanimous, and telling quotations might also be made from St. Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Basil, St. Gregory Nazianzen, and others.

(2) Remission of Temporal Punishment

states: "No satisfaction is to be enjoined upon the baptized for past (Sess. V) teaches: "There is no cause of damnation in those who have been truly buried with Baptism not only washes away sin, it also remits the punishment of sin. This was the plain teaching of the primitive Church. We read in Clement of Alexandria (Pędagog., i) of baptism: "It is called a washing because we are washed from our sins: it is called grace, because by it the punishments which are due to sin are remitted." St. Jerome (Ep. lxix) writes: "After the pardon (indulgentiam) of baptism, the severity of the Judge is not to be feared." And St. Augustine (De Pecc. et Mer., II, xxviii) says plainly: "If immediately [after baptism] there follows the departure from this life, there will be absolutely nothing that a man must answer for [quod obnoxium hominem teneat], for he will have been freed from everything that bound him." In perfect accord with the early doctrine, the Florentine decreesins; and if they die before any sin, they will immediately attain to the kingdom of heaven and to the vision of God." In like manner the Council of TrentChrist by baptism . . . Nothing whatever will delay their entrance into heaven."

(3) Infusion of Supernatural Grace, Gifts, and Virtues

Another effect of baptism is the infusion of sanctifying grace and supernatural gifts and virtues. It is this sanctifying grace which renders men the adopted sons of God and confers the right to heavenly glory. The doctrine on this subject is found in the seventh chapter on justification in the sixth session of the Council of Trent. Many of the Fathers of the Church also enlarge upon this subject (as St. Cyprian, St. Jerome, Clement of Alexandria, and others), though not in the technical language of later ecclesiastical decrees.

(4) Conferral of the Right to Special Graces

those (Theologians likewise teach that baptism gives man the right to those special graces which are necessary for attaining the end for which the sacrament was instituted and for enabling him to fulfill the baptismal promises. This doctrine of the schools, which claims for every sacramentgraces which are peculiar and diverse according to the end and object of the sacrament, was already enunciated by Tertullian (De Resurrect., viii). It is treated and developed by St. Thomas AquinasIII:62:2). Pope Eugene IV repeats this doctrine in the decree for the Armenians. In treating of the grace bestowed by baptism, we presume that the recipient of the sacrament puts no obstacle (obex) in the way of sacramental grace. In an infant, of course, this would be impossible, and as a consequence, the infant receives at once all the baptismal grace. It is otherwise in the case of an adult, for in such a one it is necessary that the requisite dispositions of the soul be present.

according to his disposition and co-operation. We are not to confound an obstacle (obex) to the The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, c. vii) states that each one receives gracesacrament itself with an obstacle to the sacramentalgrace. In the first case, there is implied a defect in the matter or form, or a lack of the requisite intention on the part of minister or recipient, and then the sacrament would be simply null. But even if all these essential requisites for constituting the sacrament be present, there can still be an obstacle put in the way of the sacramental grace, inasmuch as an adult might receive baptism with improper motives or without real detestation for sin. In that case the person would indeed be validly baptized, but he would not participate in the sacramental grace. If, however, at a later time he made amends for the past, the obstacle would be removed and he would obtain the grace which he had failed to receive when the sacrament was conferred upon him. In such a case the sacrament is said to revive and there could be no question of rebaptism.
(5) Impression of a Character on the Soul

compares this Finally, baptism, once validly conferred, can never be repeated. The Fathers (St. Ambrose, Chrysostom, and others) so understand the words of St. Paul (Hebrews 6:4), and this has been the constant teaching of the Church both Eastern and Western from the earliest times. On this account, baptism is said to impress an ineffaceable character on the soul, which the Tridentine Fathers call a spiritual and indelible mark. That baptism (as well as Confirmation and Holy orders) really does imprint such a character, is defined explicitly by the Council of Trent (Sess. VII, can. ix). St. Cyril (Pręp. in Cat.) calls baptism a "holy and indelible seal", and Clement of Alexandria (De Div. Serv., xlii), "the seal of the Lord". St. Augustinecharacter or mark imprinted upon the Christian soul with the character militaris impressed upon soldiers in the imperial service. St. Thomas treats of the nature of this indelible seal, or character, in the Summa (III:63:2).

The early leaders of the so-called Reformation held very different doctrines from those of Christian antiquity on the effects of baptism. Luther (De Captiv. Bab.) and Calvin (Antid. C. Trid.) held that this sacrament made the baptized certain of the perpetual grace of adoption. Others declared that the calling to mind of one's baptism would free him from sins committed after it; others again, that transgressions of the Divine law, although sins in themselves, would not be imputed as sins to the baptized person provided he had faith. The decrees of the Council of Trent, drawn up in opposition to the then prevailing errors, bear witness to the many strange and novel theories broached by various exponents of the nascent Protestanttheology.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#III
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #245  
Old 10-01-2007, 01:51 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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since the last post... THE SOUND OF SILENCE.
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  #246  
Old 10-01-2007, 02:33 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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I don't read long posts. Can't understand them.
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  #247  
Old 10-01-2007, 07:59 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne View Post
I don't read long posts. Can't understand them.
What about the Bible? LOLOLOL
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  #248  
Old 10-01-2007, 10:36 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
What about the Bible? LOLOLOL
I've already posted that, why?
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  #249  
Old 10-02-2007, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne View Post
I've already posted that, why?
HAHA
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  #250  
Old 10-02-2007, 09:31 PM
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Clarity

In Acts 19, the disciples had never heard of Jesus.[/QUOTE]

True, the disciples of John at Ephesus never heard of Jesus, but when it came to the Holy Ghost, they were well aware of it's coming. That was John's message, "There's one coming after me who's mightier than me, He will baptise with the Holy Ghost and fire." Their response according to the King James was, " ...we have not so much as heard whether ther be any Holy Ghost." In Thompson's Chain Reference Bible, it is inserted in the margin the RV quote, "...whether the Holy Ghost was given". Clearly, there was no misconception of the Ephesian disciples as to the Holy Ghost, just did it happen. Paul declared that it was, in Jesus.
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