DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

...
And, as far as Benincasa's statement (If it was Benny), that is an extremely broad brush statement "People coming from other countries backslide when they live here". How many people? All of them, what percentage, and what's the measuring stick to determine this?

There are a few families that I know who move back and forth across the border with Mexico. When they are here they are appear to be very much into the "ultra-con" mode. In this area, most of the UPC related Spanish works are also "ultra-con."

When they go back to Mexico it's different. I hardly recognized one sister in a pic - she plucks her eyebrows in Mexico, but not here in the States. Go figure? They all also dress for the warmer climates too - shorts, sleeveless "sun dresses" and just what you'd expect from folks in the larger cities there.

At least from the "ultra-con" mode of thinking, they "backslide" when they go back to Mexico.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Brother David

There are a few families that I know who move back and forth across the border with Mexico. When they are here they are appear to be very much into the "ultra-con" mode. In this area, most of the UPC related Spanish works are also "ultra-con."

When they go back to Mexico it's different. I hardly recognized one sister in a pic - she plucks her eyebrows in Mexico, but not here in the States. Go figure? They all also dress for the warmer climates too - shorts, sleeveless "sun dresses" and just what you'd expect from folks in the larger cities there.

At least from the "ultra-con" mode of thinking, they "backslide" when they go back to Mexico.

Truth be told many of the national works that are no longer UPCI affiliated are more liberal ... but as has be witnessed by many others .... even in org churches overseas many of the standards are relaxed and at times outright ignored.

In the Colombian national work ... trimming of hair is very much accepted.

[DAII]

Take the most successful offshoot of the United Pentecostal Church International on foreign soil .... The United Pentecostal Church of Colombia ... which consists of a constituency of over 600,000 members ... who pack stadiums full of Apostolic Oneness people in their regional conferences ... consist of about a 1/3 of the ministers as the UPCI and now have works in the States and overseas ....

Their Articles of Faith are translated verbatim from the mother international church ....

What is noticeably missing from their AOF is the Holiness Article ...

http://www.ipuc.org.co/principal/que-creemos.html

Seems they got over the minors ... and when their saints come here they often can't figure out why some don't have TVs, or are so caustic about wearing makeup or don't trim their hair.

Even so many of their women will wear skirts ...

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by DAII

Take the most successful offshoot of the United Pentecostal Church International on foreign soil .... The United Pentecostal Church of Colombia ... which consists of a constituency of over 600,000 members ... who pack stadiums full of Apostolic Oneness people in their regional conferences ... about a 1/3 of the ministers as the UPCI and now have works in the States and overseas ....

Their Articles of Faith are translated verbatim from the mother international church ....

What is noticeably missing from their AOF is the Holiness Article ...

http://www.ipuc.org.co/principal/que-creemos.html

Seems they got over the minors ... and when their saints come here they often can't figure out why some don't have TVs, or are so caustic about wearing makeup or don't trim their hair.

Even so many of their women will wear skirts ...

LOL. The first thing you see on their home page:



TV Inglesia Pentecostal Unida.

We need them here opening up more missions works - and not just for the Spanish speakers, for everybody! I think we all could learn a lot from these brothers.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by DAII

Take the most successful offshoot of the United Pentecostal Church International on foreign soil .... The United Pentecostal Church of Colombia ... which consists of a constituency of over 600,000 members ... who pack stadiums full of Apostolic Oneness people in their regional conferences ... about a 1/3 of the ministers as the UPCI and now have works in the States and overseas ....

Their Articles of Faith are translated verbatim from the mother international church ....

What is noticeably missing from their AOF is the Holiness Article ...

http://www.ipuc.org.co/principal/que-creemos.html

Seems they got over the minors ... and when their saints come here they often can't figure out why some don't have TVs, or are so caustic about wearing makeup or don't trim their hair.

Even so many of their women will wear skirts ...

Isn't that the "other" UPCI of Columbia.. even though they share the same they split away from the missionaries right? I was told the story a long time ago about Columbia having two UPCI's... the "official" one which is tiny and the "other" that is bigger than the USA church. Correct me if i'm jumbled on that one.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Brother David

LOL. The first thing you see on their home page:



TV Inglesia Pentecostal Unida.

We need them here opening up more missions works - and not just for the Spanish speakers, for everybody! I think we all could learn a lot from these brothers.

During the bulk of my dad's ministry in New York ... many of our most faithful and rooted saints came from Colombia .... and had settled in Jackson Heights ... in Queens, New York ...

Some had heard "The Message" in the 1930's, 1940's through the 1960's in Colombia and when they and their children resettled here ... they were not going to give up their TV sets ... because they now were attending a UPCI church.

TV was a non-issue for us.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Isn't that the "other" UPCI of Columbia.. even though they share the same they split away from the missionaries right? I was told the story a long time ago about Columbia having two UPCI's... the "official" one which is tiny and the "other" that is bigger than the USA church. Correct me if i'm jumbled on that one.

Yes, you are correct ... it was the first national work to go independent ... from the mothership.

There was tremendous revival, persecution and later internal strife that led to this schism in the 60's I believe... Eventually the national work teamed up with the Canadian work headed by Stairs.

Fudge touches on some of this in his book ...

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Brother David

We need them here opening up more missions works - and not just for the Spanish speakers, for everybody! I think we all could learn a lot from these brothers.

On their homepage also you will find a video newscast of a missionary family from the city of Cali .... from the Colombian church.... to Haiti that has been displaced by the earthquake ...
and what is left of their church.

http://www.ipuc.org.co/

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

.

You said your dentist from Burma went to a Charismatic church, was turned off and never went back. And, then I didn't understand your next statement "We see this and wonder if we will go that way". Could you please clarify?

Also, my next question is - why was she turned off? Because the women wore pants? The men had beards? The music was too loud? The people were unfriendly? I'm just trying to get a better understanding of why she was turned off, because there are millions of people who attend Charismatic churches every week who are NOT turned off, so I'm just curious.

I have an appointment at my lawyer's office tomorrow, so I thought I would address this as I won't be around tomorrow.

Certainly, I will clarify. At the outset, I believe you and I can both agree that personal choice and perception is going to be just that - personal choice and perception.

My dentist simply stated that the people who called themselves "Christians" did not show themselves to be such in their private lives. One thing she mentioned was that she was put out by their social drinking. I remember her mentioning some other things, behavior issues, but the drinking is the thing that mainly sticks out in my mind. The conversation was a couple of years ago. She simply wants to attend a more conservative minded church.

And, as far as Benincasa's statement (If it was Benny), that is an extremely broad brush statement "People coming from other countries backslide when they live here". How many people? All of them, what percentage, and what's the measuring stick to determine this?

I've heard the same said about the American churches from foreign missionaries. That makes me think that Benincasa's comments have some merit.

Let me post a message I received concerning the youth in this country, as it correlates with Benincasa's comments, IMO.

This is affecting more than the UPCI, which many have said here, or are giving the impression, that the UPCI churches are about the only ones that are stagnant and not growing. I believe that is the gist of this thread. I find that a bit laughable.

Church Drop-Out: Overcoming the Youth Exodus
Join us this evening for this free video Simulcast on the Web and the AFR radio network.
01/19/2010

Here's a reminder about an important radio/Internet simulcast coming up tonight on AFR and www.afa.net. It deals with something close to our hearts as parents. In communities all across our land, there's a problem of young people dropping out of church. As a matter of fact, three out of four Christian teens walk away from church after they leave home.

Sincerely,

Tim Wildmon, President
American Family Association

I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but these kinds of unfounded statements just bug the daylights out of me!

So, if you could please provide some clarification, I would be MOST appreciative!

I didn't think you were being argumentative. I believe we will both agree that we will find people, in all groups and organizations, that serve God with all their hearts. We will also find some that serve sin with the same fervency. Therefore, we will find no group full of perfection and having no troubles they are having to deal with or are facing.


I'm not sure that I can totally agree with your point here.

However, realize that the leadership of any organization, when they make public statements and become the mouthpiece of that organization, will be the topic of discussion, both pro and con. Just like the POTUS is a topic of discussion over American policies, and freedom of speech allows us to cast our vocal votes on a daily basis, the leader of the UPCI, or Southern Baptist convention, or Roman Catholic church is no different.

I think that is what I've seen more than anything on this forum, discussion over issues and policies that either currently affect us, or have affected most of us in the past.

There is a difference, IMO, as politics and the POTUS are involved in ALL of our lives. The Roman Catholic Church is not a part of my life. I still have many relatives who are members. It's not a topic of discussion for us. I can see me referencing the RCC in a discussion, but running down the teachings that I don't agree with, well, that seems a bit pointless as I'm not involved anymore. My mother harps on the RCC and it's teachings. All that means to me is that she hasn't let go and moved on. I get tired of listening to it. I try to remind her that I learned to love Jesus in the RCC, but she will have none of that. She just wants to point to all it's faults. Some of the conversations here remind me of my mother. LOL!

I also don't agree with you that no one is saying, "You should all leave the UPCI, they teach the doctrine of devils". They may not use that exact terminology, but it is certainly implied, IMMHO.

We can certainly agree on this comment you made.

As Mo Mary said, you should stay exactly where you feel God has placed you.

Anyway, I guess I sit here curious as God is telling me to stay and others keep putting it down. It's just very curious.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I have an appointment at my lawyer's office tomorrow, so I thought I would address this as I won't be around tomorrow.

Certainly, I will clarify. At the outset, I believe you and I can both agree that personal choice and perception is going to be just that - personal choice and perception.

My dentist simply stated that the people who called themselves "Christians" did not show themselves to be such in their private lives. One thing she mentioned was that she was put out by their social drinking. I remember her mentioning some other things, behavior issues, but the drinking is the thing that mainly sticks out in my mind. The conversation was a couple of years ago. She simply wants to attend a more conservative minded church.



I've heard the same said about the American churches from foreign missionaries. That makes me think that Benincasa's comments have some merit.

Let me post a message I received concerning the youth in this country, as it correlates with Benincasa's comments, IMO.

This is affecting more than the UPCI, which many have said here, or are giving the impression, that the UPCI churches are about the only ones that are stagnant and not growing. I believe that is the gist of this thread. I find that a bit laughable.





I didn't think you were being argumentative. I believe we will both agree that we will find people, in all groups and organizations, that serve God with all their hearts. We will also find some that serve sin with the same fervency. Therefore, we will find no group full of perfection and having no troubles they are having to deal with or are facing.


I'm not sure that I can totally agree with your point here.




There is a difference, IMO, as politics and the POTUS are involved in ALL of our lives. The Roman Catholic Church is not a part of my life. I still have many relatives who are members. It's not a topic of discussion for us. I can see me referencing the RCC in a discussion, but running down the teachings that I don't agree with, well, that seems a bit pointless as I'm not involved anymore. My mother harps on the RCC and it's teachings. All that means to me is that she hasn't let go and moved on. I get tired of listening to it. I try to remind her that I learned to love Jesus in the RCC, but she will have none of that. She just wants to point to all it's faults. Some of the conversations here remind me of my mother. LOL!

I also don't agree with you that no one is saying, "You should all leave the UPCI, they teach the doctrine of devils". They may not use that exact terminology, but it is certainly implied, IMMHO.

We can certainly agree on this comment you made.


Anyway, I guess I sit here curious as God is telling me to stay and others keep putting it down. It's just very curious.

Thanks for the clarification, PO. And, I can see how your dentist friend would be discouraged by the social drinking in a church, I've always found that to be a bit of an incongruence, but then again, I'm thinking of things from my conservative point of reference. Either way, I wouldn't disagree with her assessment based on that issue.

And, you are right, the same people exist in our world, whether they are Apostolic, Charismatic, Baptist, Catholic, etc - there are some committed, and some not so much. We should not judge any group on the actions of a few, but unfortunately, we do, and that's what makes the old "This group is good because Bro. Bob is good, or this group is bad because Bro. Jim is bad" argument null and void. We can all find extreme examples in each group to prove our point. I suppose that is why I'm so sensitive to broad brush statements, and I appreciate the healthy discussion.

I find it interesting that, as your article references, many, if not most, organized churches are experiencing diminishing attendance. I've noticed on television lately, there are a series of commercials entitled "Catholics Come Home" and they feature people who tell of their experiences and reasons for leaving the Catholic church, and how miserable they were, and how glad they are that they are back. Lets me know that it's not just the Protestant movement that is feeling the downturn.

Also, to the comment about people backsliding in America, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it has not as much to do with the power in the churches as it has to do with the prosperity in the nation. If these folks come from countries that have no professional sports, no leisure activities, and no money to attend them even if they existed, it could well be a contributing factor when they come to a country with 500 channels on basic cable, more to do OUTSIDE the church that inside the church, and money with which to indulge these pleasures. Just a thought.

And, I haven't been around here very much lately, so I will concede that maybe I've missed some threads, but at least on this thread, I haven't seen anyone trying to convince anyone to leave the UPCI. I've only seen people discuss the validity of an organizational position. The nastiest posts I've seen on this thread have come from an ultracon, defending the position. And, to be honest, my experience is that there is just as much pressure from those still in the mothership placed on those who have left as the other way around.

Either way, I enjoyed the discussion, thanks!