Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parallels

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Exactly!

Like when people say, "I have to get drunk in order to save the drunkard". LOL!

Huh!?

[diakonos]

Well stated

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Which holy men of God spake in old times about Michael and the devil arguing about Moses' body? Or about angels falling from heaven in an ancient rebellion against God?

Does that mean it never happened because it wasn't explained in the Old Covenant? Cannot God use Peter, and Jude to explain what happened in the spiritual that wasn't explained by the old prophets or writers? Where they not moved by the Spirit to write the word of God?

Originally Posted by Esaias

And, who is being quoted here:

Acts 17:28 KJV
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

...and what is being referred to in that quotation, what is it's original context? And more importantly, have you ever asked yourself these questions?

I understand Paul is using their poets, and its not "AMMO" against them, he was explaining to them the "Unknown God".

However, explain why Paul makes reference to these poets, yet Peter and Jude never make reference to the false writings of Enoch?

Yet, Im assuming by at least of couple on the current side of this thread are in agreement that Peter and Jude are quoting the Book of Enoch. SMH

Job 1:6-12
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Where did Job get this from?
This was revealed to him, as it was revealed to Peter and Jude.

Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

Are we or rather some on here so knowledgeable that we can say that this portion of scripture is not true, but rather the writings of a false book. That we may even teach not to believe this part of the Bible because it's not written in plain sight of the Old Covenant.

[mfblume]

Been away for a while and just popped in to take a look.

Good stuff, Esaias!

The alleged book of Enoch contradicts the Genesis account when it says these watchers built the ark when the bible says Noah did. I never felt anything fit with this book of Enoch and the bible. And Lucifer was only a king of Babylon, not satan's pre-fall existence.

Originally Posted by Esaias

(continued from previous post)

So these false teachers were speaking blasphemous things concerning the angelic and divine government of God. Obviously, Peter is saying these false teachers are teaching error (blasphemies) concerning angels (dominions and glories).

2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Peter here cites Enoch chapter 9, yet he contradicts the citation. In Enoch chapter 9 it was angels who accused the 'fallen angels' to God. Yet here, Peter specifically says the angels which were greater in power and might did not accuse them to God. This is a direct contradiction of the text of Enoch. The passage follows:

[Chapter 9]

1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being 2 shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. 3 And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause 4 before the Most High."' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the 5 ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all 6 things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which 7 men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the 9 women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have 10 borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are 11 wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.' http://hiddenbible.com/enoch/online.html/

The four chief angels (archangels) of Jewish mythology accused the fallen angels to God. They accused the fallen angels of sinning, of miscegenation with humans, of fathering hybrid offspring, and of leading mankind into all sorts of evil. That is what the book of Enoch states. That is what the then[current Jewish fables stated. That is what was commonly taught among Jewish mystics and gnostics. But Peter specifically denies this.

2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Against whom? The 'glories' and dominion' spoken of previously. Peter is saying the false teachers are blaspheming angelic powers, whereas the angels themselves do no such thing - directly refuting the teaching of Jewish fable-masters who relied upon Enoch and other fables/myths for their authority. Enoch and the others have the archangels accusing the evil fallen angels of the various things the gnostics and fable-tellers likewise accused them of. Yet Peter specifically refutes this and denies it.

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The false teachers spreading fables and myths and making money off the gullible speak evil of things they do not understand (the dominion and glories, ie the heavenly government and the angelic orders). Furthermore, they will totally perish in their corruption. It is a serious matter the blaspheme the government of Almighty God. (What, do we think God alone is himself the whole entirety of his government? No, he has myriads of angelic beings that carry out the Divine will. To blaspheme the angelic beings is to blaspheme the government of God. Just as if railing blasphemies and calumnies against the police, sherriff's, judges, courts, etc is nothing less than a blasphemous assault on the entire national government. Rail against the king's men and spread lies and falsehoods about them, and you slander the king and his entire government!)

2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

These false teachers spreading their myths and fables which appear to center on blasphemy against angelic beings in the divine government of God are doomed, they are spots and blemishes in the church, they are immoral, they are greedy, they are cursed, and they divine for hire like Balaam.

2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

This is a series of references by Peter from the book of Enoch, paralleled in Jude, by the way, on the same subject, and making the same point. Peter (and Jude) applies these Enochian epithets to the false teachers teaching lies and fables regarding the 'angels' (namely that 'they sinned', fornicated with humans, produced hybrid offspring, and corrupted all mankind through teaching them forbidden knowledge and seducing them into rebellion, and resulted in the myriads of demons and evil spirits roaming the earth today which afflict mankind, and who can be taken care of by those 'in the know' - for a fee...).

2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These fable-promoters and false teachers are leading people back into bondage, entangling people again in corruption and pollution. They are said to have turned from the 'holy commandment' and are like a dog going back to his vomit. In all these statements, Peter is saying these teachers and those they deceive with their fables and myths about 'angels sinning' etc are returning to something.

Israel came to the truth but often returned to idolatry and superstition. The Jews continued that tradition with their fables and myths, 'exorcism', mysticism etc, concerning Solomon and his command of demons through superior gnosis, the Star of Rempham (the so-called 'star of David' which is actually the hexagram of Solomon and is used for mystical and occultic purposes, usually exorcisms), their kaballah and all the other nonsense they came up with in the second temple period (and later). All that 'fable and myth' was really regurgitated pagan superstition brought from Babylon and Egypt, to which they were returning, with all it;s superstitions about divine beings leading man astray, fornicating with women, producing hybrids (demigods), being chained in Tartarus under the earth, below Hades, producing evil spirits that roam around tormenting people, requiring the services of 'experts in the spiritual deliverance ministry', etc etc etc.

So then Peter is actually refuting the Book of Enoch, and its fables and myths perpetrated by Jewish gnostic Essene and Pharisaic mystics and rabbis.

Which means the whole 'angels that sinned, mated with humans, producing hybrids, corrupting mankind, teaching and leading mankind into evil inventions and immorality, generating possessions etc etc' teaching is nothing more than Jewish fables and myths promoted by false teachers who are marked for destruction because of it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Does that mean it never happened because it wasn't explained in the Old Covenant? Cannot God use Peter, and Jude to explain what happened in the spiritual that wasn't explained by the old prophets or writers? Where they not moved by the Spirit to write the word of God?

So you believe God supernaturally revealed to Peter and Jude spiritual truths that had already been "revealed" to the Jewish mystics and occultists?

I understand Paul is using their poets, and its not "AMMO" against them, he was explaining to them the "Unknown God".

Brother Benincasa explained it quite well a few posts ago.

However, explain why Paul makes reference to these poets, yet Peter and Jude never make reference to the false writings of Enoch?

Are you serious? They both quote from Enoch, the Assumption of Moses, and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs extensively. All of which are false writings.

Job 1:6-12
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Where did Job get this from?
This was revealed to him, as it was revealed to Peter and Jude.

You think Job wrote the book of Job? Why is it classed with the Poetry and Wisdom writings of the Bible and not the Histories?

Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

Are we or rather some on here so knowledgeable that we can say that this portion of scripture is not true, but rather the writings of a false book. That we may even teach not to believe this part of the Bible because it's not written in plain sight of the Old Covenant.

Nobody says "Don't believe this or that part of the Bible." I don't think you understand what is actually being said here in this thread.

I noticed you didn't actually answer my question to you, but instead you shifted the goalpost as they say and are now returned to the idea that we can teach stuff as doctrine not actually found in the Bible. A position with which I strongly disagree. If you don't have book, chapter, and verse for it (in context, "rightly divided" as they say) then you just ain't in the Book and are off in la-la land.

[Amanah]

Could aspects of Genesis also be a refutation of pagan mythology.

The creation story is contrary to the Enūma Eliš in that pagans worshipped the elements as gods while Genesis proclaims the one God as creator of the earth, sun, moon, sky, seas, and all living beings.

Genesis 6 visualizes the pagan mythology of sons of God (angels) defiling themselves with humanity and birthing Giants on the earth, themes common in Mesopotamian mythology.

As humanity becomes corrupt and debauched worshipping pagan gods, God floods the earth to begin again with Noah and his family in relation to the one true God.

The theme of the destruction of paganism comes into play again with the overthrow of Sodom and the conquest of Canaan's pagan mythology.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So you believe God supernaturally revealed to Peter and Jude spiritual truths that had already been "revealed" to the Jewish mystics and occultists?

So those things are just jewish mysticism? You better be right.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Benincasa explained it quite well a few posts ago.

You're right he did.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Are you serious? They both quote from Enoch, the Assumption of Moses, and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs extensively. All of which are false writings.

Peter never mentions Enoch and Jude says he prophesied. Some can assume, the book of enoch is who Peter is referencing, and then Jude seems to copy Peter and the difference is Jude mentions the man behind their inspiration.

Originally Posted by Esaias

You think Job wrote the book of Job? Why is it classed with the Poetry and Wisdom writings of the Bible and not the Histories?

It could've been Job, or it could've been Moses.

Is that really the game changer? Because it's not classified in a certain group it's therefore only poetry and not real?

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nobody says "Don't believe this or that part of the Bible." I don't think you understand what is actually being said here in this thread.

I noticed you didn't actually answer my question to you, but instead you shifted the goalpost as they say and are now returned to the idea that we can teach stuff as doctrine not actually found in the Bible. A position with which I strongly disagree. If you don't have book, chapter, and verse for it (in context, "rightly divided" as they say) then you just ain't in the Book and are off in la-la land.

It is though. You and others have already stated the book of enoch is wrong and you and others also said his writings are mentioned in the Bible, so therefore are you saying not to believe;

-An angel named Micheal
-Angels were casted down to the pit
-Satan appearing with the sons of God was poetry and not real.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Huh!?

Bad comparison.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

So those things are just jewish mysticism? You better be right.

If you are familiar with early Jewish pseudepigrapha then you would understand what I said, and why I said it. Pre-Christian Jewish occultists and mystics wrote numerous books claiming to have been written by Enoch, Seth, Abraham, the various Patriarchs, Solomon, and others. These books contain fanciful depictions of multiple levels of heaven, the spirit world, the afterlife, the cosmos, angels, demons, various calendars claiming to be the correct divine calendars, supposed apocalyptic revelations, prophecies, methods of exorcisms, names of angelic beings as well as names of demons, fallen angels, alternative creation stories involving a girl demon named Lilith, Cain was fathered by the serpent during his seduction of Eve, the fallen angels gave man technology and inventions, some of the giants survived the Flood by clinging to the outside of the Ark, Solomon knew the 72 Sacred Names of God and could command demons by using the right combinations of the Tetragram, etc etc etc. These Jewish fables gave rise to Gnosticism and eventually the Trinity dogma, among other things.

But you seem to think these Jewish fables contain revelations of spiritual insights later confirmed by Peter and Jude? Do you not see the problem with that line of thinking?


Titus 1:13-14 KJV
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Peter never mentions Enoch and Jude says he prophesied. Some can assume, the book of enoch is who Peter is referencing, and then Jude seems to copy Peter and the difference is Jude mentions the man behind their inspiration.

Both 2 Peter and Jude contain numerous quotations from the various Enoch writings as well as other pseudepigraphical works. Yet what those Jewish books ascribe to the fallen angels, Peter and Jude apply them to the "false teachers" creeping into the church.

It could've been Job, or it could've been Moses.

You asked how did Job know thus and such, and answered that it was by revelation. Now you don't know who wrote the book?

Is that really the game changer? Because it's not classified in a certain group it's therefore only poetry and not real?

Is a parable real? Did a certain man really lend his vineyard out to husbandmen who then killed his servants and his son? Is that a history lesson? Or is that an analogy? Job is literally Hebrew poetry. It serves a purpose. And that purpose was not and is not to teach a few historical data points upon which to build doctrines found nowhere else except among occultists...

It is though. You and others have already stated the book of enoch is wrong ...

Do you disagree? Do you think the book of Enoch is Scripture? What about the book of Jubilees? And Jasher? And Tobit? 2nd Esdras? The Apocalypse of Baruch?

These are all Jewish myths. The citation about "Enoch prophesied saying..." is a citation from one of the apocryphal Enoch writings which if memory serves me correctly had to do with the Lord coming to judge the fallen angels and demons and those who are influenced by them. But to whom does Jude apply it?

Jude 1:14-15 KJV
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, [15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Who are the "these" in verse 14?

Jude 1:3-4 KJV
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. [4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Could aspects of Genesis also be a refutation of pagan mythology.

The creation story is contrary to the Enūma Eliš in that pagans worshipped the elements as gods while Genesis proclaims the one God as creator of the earth, sun, moon, sky, seas, and all living beings.

Genesis 6 visualizes the pagan mythology of sons of God (angels) defiling themselves with humanity and birthing Giants on the earth, themes common in Mesopotamian mythology.

As humanity becomes corrupt and debauched worshipping pagan gods, God floods the earth to begin again with Noah and his family in relation to the one true God.

The theme of the destruction of paganism comes into play again with the overthrow of Sodom and the conquest of Canaan's pagan mythology.

Much of the old pagan mythologies are corruptions of the true original story found in Genesis.