The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

[UnTraditional]

Christ is our Sabbath. He is the rest that remains for the children of God. Not a day, but the eternal day. Our Sabbath is resting from our own works and trusting solely in His finished work. Plain and simple.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Raffi

Okay, all.

I have written enough for now. I hope it helps you to see that not ALL of us poor Law-keepers believe that we are trying to get up our salvation through fleshy efforts and ordinances, but that we have an altogether DIFFERENT reason for why we keep the precious Laws of our Father and Savior.

I will now begin to read over more of Mike's posts, and study. I will hope that by tomorrow or the next day to post my responses, and to post up my own exegesis of Romans 6 and 7.

Good night, and peace in Messiah.

hi Raffi,

Will continue to look over your notes. We know you are not trying to seek salvation by works, but I also hope you understand we who refute law-keeping do not believe in antinomianism as was falsely accused by a forum member lately.

I believe you are mistaken in what laws are spoken of in Galatians, escpecially the reference to the two covenants in Gal 4, and I understand you claim law was never meant to justify a person. But I have noted that Paul explained law was indeed intended to justify the adherent, and a confusing of the term law in Galatians and likely elsewhere, causes lawkeepers to miss that.

And I fear a grain of salvation by works comes through, though, too. Someone on the forum recently said David was saved before the cross. If that was not what was intended, then it certainly was not made clear. I claimed no one including David was saved UNTIL Jesus actually made atonement in heaven after his ascension. And I was mocked for it as though David had no hope, when I distinctly said the atonement was his hope. Unbelievable. Thank-you for not lying about my beliefs like that. But the only way David could be saved before the atonement was by works. Thoughts on that while we are between responses to each others "theses"? lol

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The Spirit will guide us into all truth. And according to Christ, God's Word is truth. Thus, the Spirit guides us into all the Word. And, Jesus is the Word made flesh. So a Spirit led life, guided into all of God's Word, will manifest as being like Him, walking as He walked - as a man who lives by every Word of God.

To avoid confusion and follow my pure Bible (the AV) I follow a common convention that the Word is what we see in John 1:1, 1:14, and 1 John 5:7 and Revelation 19:13.

And the word of God is the scriptures (and can apply to specific words spoken by God).

Without that pattern, what you write above is hard to parse.

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Christians who keep the food laws abstain from "unclean" animals (like pork, shellfish, reptiles, arachnids, rodents, etc).

They would also make an effort to have meats which had the blood drained to the ground.

Steven

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

To avoid confusion and follow my pure Bible (the AV) I follow a common convention that the Word is what we see in John 1:1, 1:14, and 1 John 5:7 and Revelation 19:13.

And the word of God is the scriptures (and can apply to specific words spoken by God).

Without that pattern, what you write above is hard to parse.

Steven

Well yes, there is certainly a distinction between the Word (which was incarnate), and the word aka the scriptures. However, the distinction seems to me to be largely one of medium. The logos of God is His self-revelation, by which He created all things. He spoke all things into existence (Gen 1). And that word of God was revealed by the prophets and preserved by the inspired writers as scripture. And, Jesus is the Word. He is also the truth, yet the word of God is the truth.

So I see a conflation in scripture between Jesus as logos of God, and scripture as logos of God. God revealed, on the one hand via scripture, and on the other hand via Jesus Christ. He, Jesus, is the enfleshment of everything the scriptures say in their testimony of God. Which is why Christ said the scriptures testify of Him(self).

I don't have a problem saying the Holy Bible is, in a sense, God in written form. Not the physical paper, ink, and binder, but the scriptures, the "words of God as preserved by Divine Providence".

If it's hard to parse it's because of my limited ability at explanation.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Christ is our Sabbath. He is the rest that remains for the children of God. Not a day, but the eternal day. Our Sabbath is resting from our own works and trusting solely in His finished work. Plain and simple.

This is a common and popular idea in Christendom. It is, however, inaccurate.

There is no verse that says "Christ is our Sabbath."

The Sabbath is defined as "the seventh day". Christ is not the seventh day of the week.

The close correlation between resting from ordinary work and resting in Christ has led many to conclude Christ is the Sabbath, and that obeying the fourth commandment is accomplished by simply being a Christian, and therefore there is no need to actually do what the fourth commandment actually says to do (keep the seventh day holy unto God). However, the same reasoning, when applied to the fifth commandment, shows the error:

"The fifth commandment says to honour one's mother and father. Our father is God, and the heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of us all. Therefore, we fulfill the fifth commandment by simply being Christians, and therefore there is no need to actually take care of our actual mothers and fathers."

So we see that although analogies can be derived from the commandments, and comparisons made with various other categories of truth, it does not follow that we can therefore dispense with actual obedience to the commandments.

[mfblume]

Untraditional, you're right. Jesus is indeed the sabbath. He is the body or reality that cast the shadow of sabbath days back in time to the inception of the sabbath day. Let no one tell you differently.

[Raffi]

Friends, I am very sorry for the delay in getting back. I was away at my job for a couple of days and unable to get back to these posts. I actually did type up a reply to Mike's question about David's salvation, but I was using my smart phone, and the battery died just before I hit send and I lost that post. It frustrated me because I felt satisfied with my answer, and did not want to retype it. But since I have no choice I will attempt to rewrite it again now.

So, how do I see David's salvation? I presume this question is in response to Romans 4:6-8. Which quotes Psalm 32:1-2.

I personally hold to the view that David, like ALL Old Testament Saints was saved the exact same way we are saved today: namely, by Grace through faith in Messiah, that is, by a corresponding act of faith in the Divine Promise of the Redeemer. I am one of those who believe that in all of Salvation History, there has been only ONE Covenant of Redemption, ONE means of Salvation, ONE Redeemer and Savior. All people of EVERY AGE are saved according to faith by The Heavenly Messiah. Not several different ways to be saved. Not one way by Law and another way by Grace.

I believe that The Atonement of Messiah is available in Salvation for the present, but also BACKWARD in time, and FORWARD in time. ALL who have ever been saved were saved by the very same Atonement.

In ancient times, prior to the actual coming of Messiah in the flesh, the Atonement was already in The Mind of God. People, through a faith response in The Divine Promise of Salvation, were able to receive the benefits of The Atonement by having faith that looked forward to the Messiah. Even though they may not have intellectually grasped all of the details that we today have in retrospect, the people were able to tap into this future Atonement by releasing their faith through what WAS available to them.

What they had was types and shadows. I believe that types were more than pretty word pictures. Types also pointed one's faith to the antitype. Types were given to illustrate spiritual points related to the Messianic Atonement and to function as "points of contact". When a person acted in the types provided by Divine Revelation, this resulted in the effect of a "faith release" in the worshiper, in the same kind of way that Water Baptism does for us. By releasing faith in the meaning of what the type pointed to, one was then connected to the substance. It was not the type itself that saved, but faith in the reality to which the type pointed.

Messiah was present in the meanings of the types even in the Old Testament. I believe the efficacy of The Atonement was just as present in the Old Testament as it is in the current Economy. So that Adam was saved because of faith in the Promised Seed, and Abraham was saved because of his faith that God will provide HIMSELF a lamb, and because his eye was not on the city built by human hands, but was on the City who's builder and maker is God. Every person that has ever been saved, and ever will be saved is saved by the same Atonement, and by the same Messiah.

Okay, just as I feared, I did not say this as eloquently as I did the first time. What can you do?

Any way, Mike, I am quite sure you are familiar with this Doctrine, however. Even though I did not explain it this time as well as I did my first attempt, I know you are a well-versed guy and you know this theory well. I am not sure what the theological name given to this viewpoint is, however I have held to this view for many years. I learned it, actually from studies in Covenant Theology and was surprised to learn that apparently some Dispensationalists believe in this idea too. The best treatments I have read on this viewpoint came from Albert C. Knudson and Clark Pinnock.

For anyone else not familiar with this theory, I found a couple of sites that seem to be expressing the same view I hold to. Obviously, I am not claiming I believe in everything these sites teach, but these sites are considered to be mainstream Evangelical.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Tes...salvation.html

https://answersingenesis.org/gospel/...-in-the-flesh/

This is an interesting topic, but it is probably better served as the topic of another thread altogether.

[Raffi]

Also, I perused this article which seems to be from a Covenant Theology perspective and seems to be teaching the same view as I hold to:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho.../otsaints.html

[Raffi]

I should add, I do not think that every one involved in the Set-Apart Apostolic Movement believes the same way about this particular subject. This theory is simply the view I hold to, and I have not discussed it with many other people in our movement. Some people believe this same way, but others hold to different views. It is not considered an essential-for-salvation doctrine.