Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[mfblume]

So, is it judging when a person takes what God says is the ruling for who is lost, and seeing that in someone or themselves, and then claiming such people are lost? Or, instead, is judging making your own conclusions of what makes one lost and then seeing someone or themselves fit that criteria and saying they're lost?

[good samaritan]

Stating the Bible is not judging. I have been thinking about judging here lately. If someone is judged there is a verdict which holds consequence, but me telling someone they are lost in sin is not judgement, but merely me repeating what the scripture says. Judgement is what will be received if they choose to continue in the sinful and unrepentant lifestyle without Jesus Christ. Jesus commands us to judge the widows and the fatherless. I think he is telling us to do good for those who rightfully need help. I wouldn't intentionally persecute someone for being a sinner, but I would warn them about the path they are own. That is not judging, but that is warning of judgement.

[good samaritan]

If I don't open my bowels of compassion and I precede to afflict a person because of their status that is judging.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Stating the Bible is not judging. I have been thinking about judging here lately. If someone is judged there is a verdict which holds consequence, but me telling someone they are lost in sin is not judgement, but merely me repeating what the scripture says. Judgement is what will be received if they choose to continue in the sinful and unrepentant lifestyle without Jesus Christ. Jesus commands us to judge the widows and the fatherless. I think he is telling us to do good for those who rightfully need help. I wouldn't intentionally persecute someone for being a sinner, but I would warn them about the path they are own. That is not judging, but that is warning of judgement.

Amen.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If I don't open my bowels of compassion and I precede to afflict a person because of their status that is judging.

Right. But liberals think if we say they are in sin and lost that we hate them and are judging. How can we tell them that they need Jesus if we can't say they're lost? Jesus came to save the lost. So if they need Jesus they're lost.

Some make the mistake of thinking no one is saved now and no one is lay because it's not over yet. in one sense that's true. but the bible also puts the saved state in the here and now for believers. in other words, if one died now, they'd know they're either saved or lost now.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

How can we tell them that they need Jesus if we can't say they're lost?

A fair question would be why are you telling anyone they need Jesus, if it is even possible that you are a hypocrite? Are you coming from the position of Master, or Servant when you "tell" someone they need Jesus? I'm curious, have you ever, yet, encountered someone in all this "telling" that has never heard of Jesus?

And consider--if no one comes to Christ but by God's drawing them, what might be the very best way to chase people away from Christ, than by someone who might be considered a Master--and who will likely be cultivating that image, proving the point--"telling" them what they "must do" to get right with their own Father? I know your living depends upon this--and don't worry, btw, the fearful abound--but think about it.

Our accepted model of "leading people to Christ" is deeply flawed, and the flaw is obvious at our conception of "leading" imo. "Leading" appeals to the ego, everyone wants to be a "leader," etc. I suggest that the best leaders are at the very least reluctant ones, and as a general rule i would be suspicious of anyone who aspires to be a leader by that definition.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Stating the Bible is not judging. I have been thinking about judging here lately. If someone is judged there is a verdict which holds consequence, but me telling someone they are lost in sin is not judgement, but merely me repeating what the scripture says. Judgement is what will be received if they choose to continue in the sinful and unrepentant lifestyle without Jesus Christ. Jesus commands us to judge the widows and the fatherless. I think he is telling us to do good for those who rightfully need help. I wouldn't intentionally persecute someone for being a sinner, but I would warn them about the path they are own. That is not judging, but that is warning of judgement.

i often don't reply to you, simply because you never say anything that i disagree with now i don't know how well that serves you, an endorsement from me, but you have obviously found more grace than many.

So i will agree that stating the Bible is not judging, but we all know that the Bible can be misused. There is most certainly a time for preaching, and even judgement, and i would not suggest otherwise. But when the fruit of one's judgement becomes, essentially, "Every sect but mine is going to hell," i think it is time to pause and reflect.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

A fair question would be why are you telling anyone they need Jesus, if it is even possible that you are a hypocrite?

This is where you show your lack of understanding in the word and have effectively been rendered to do nothing for God's will.

Worst case scenario, since you seem to always think the worst of a situation despite 1 Cor 13:7, and I am a hypocrite, notice what Paul said:

Php 1:14-18 KJV And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. (15) Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: (16) The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: (17) But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. (18) What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Are you coming from the position of Master, or Servant when you "tell" someone they need Jesus?

Far from a master. Just a messenger servant, since Jesus told us to tell people and preach about Him. And I am seeking to be obedient to that.

1Co 9:16 KJV For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

I'm curious, have you ever, yet, encountered someone in all this "telling" that has never heard of Jesus?

That's kind of hard to do in Canada as far as people not knowing He ever existed. But as far as knowing He is Saviour and they do not know what that means, perhaps only having heard it, yes!.

And consider--if no one comes to Christ but by God's drawing them, what might be the very best way to chase people away from Christ, than by someone who might be considered a Master--and who will likely be cultivating that image, proving the point--"telling" them what they "must do" to get right with their own Father?

Get right with their own Father? That statement's a stacked deck.

Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again! In other words we must be born so that God is genuinely our Father. We're all children of God in the sense GOD CREATED us. But in the sense of lost or saved, we must be BORN AGAIN and thereby truly have that relationship as Sons of God.

Otherwise, John would never have written:

Joh 1:12 KJV But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

According to your way of thinking, no one needs to become a son of God, since we are all children of God. That means John should not only have avoided quoting Jesus about the need to be BORN AGAIN, but he should never have stated that God gives us power to BECOME SONS OF GOD since we already are without Jesus!

This is where lack of understanding derives from lack of biblical knowledge and lack of knowing what it teaches and says. You made huge leaps of assumption that violate what the bible actually teaches. When confronted with these teachings, you say God put that there to make the dishonest stumble. Well, how else would God say it if we were right? lol

I know your living depends upon this--and don't worry, btw, the fearful abound--but think about it.

Wrong. My living does not depend on this. I work a radio news broadcasting job, you know. But I told you many things before that you shuffled beneath the carpet, since they proved your premise incorrect.

Our accepted model of "leading people to Christ" is deeply flawed,

...Says the man who thinks no one needs to BECOME the sons of God, and who is unaware that Jesus told us to go and tell people to believe on Him and understand the work of the cross, lest they perish. Sorry, I must obey the Lord and not man.

and the flaw is obvious at our conception of "leading" imo. "Leading" appeals to the ego, everyone wants to be a "leader," etc. I suggest that the best leaders are at the very least reluctant ones, and as a general rule i would be suspicious of anyone who aspires to be a leader by that definition.

Jesus leads, not us. We FOLLOW His Spirit. His Spirit leads us to tell the lost about salvation, and we follow him by obeying. And like Paul, we tell anyone who thinks to follow us, to only do so as long as we follow Christ.

The bible is a great book saying many things you are unaware of. You should take time to read it more!

[shazeep]

Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again!

hey, i'm telling you you must be born again; how's that workin out for ya? Jesus didn't tell the thief on the cross that he had to be born again, but said "today you will be with Me in paradise."

Jesus leads, not us. We FOLLOW His Spirit. His Spirit leads us to tell the lost about salvation, and we follow him by obeying. And like Paul, we tell anyone who thinks to follow us, to only do so as long as we follow Christ.

ok, well if your "following Christ" leads you to "all Catholics are lost," and you reject what i am saying, fine; you might defend your position to your brethren here, who do not believe that anyone here even made such statements, while we both know that you and others have, and in fact this is a widely held position. Where is the disconnect?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This is where you show your lack of understanding in the word




The bible is a great book saying many things you are unaware of. You should take time to read it more!

said in all humility, surely