Standards

[ApostolicKitty]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Back to standards, though. I want everyone who makes our church their home to feel peer pressure to live higher standards. I will teach standards in dress as well as many others, but I want people to freely choose. Birds of a feather flock together. I would rather influences in our lives to push us to live better, rather than the be drawn in the opposite direction. I want to get deeper in my walk with God. We should all want to represent God in the highest possible way and that is inwardly and outwardly.

My wife and I seen a lady today and from a distance she seemed to have a noticeably modest and pretty dress on. When we got closer, we realized they were pants. They were distinguishably female and I told my wife I couldn't see a lot wrong with them. My wife has chose to not wear pants at all, though, and her standards make me a proud husband. Outward standards seperate us from the world, but are pointless without God's Spirit operating in us inwardly.

I don't find putting peer pressure on people to be acceptable. Influence is fine, but influence them to follow the Word of God. Any amount of standards keeping that is not done from a genuine love of God and His leading is phony and will not last. I've seen it time and again... and these people end up being confused over it. It does not make them separate from the world either. I've seen many people who are standards keepers who are very worldly. I agree with you that doing so without God's Spirit operating in us it is pointless.

[ApostolicKitty]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The Bible doesn't say it is a sin to gamble. Are casino's a place for a Christian?

The Bible doesn't say it is a drink alcohol. Should a christian go to bars and drink beer as long as they don't get drunk.

The Bible doesn't its a sin for women to wear bikinis. Yes, it speaks of modesty, but there are no definitions. individuals can say what they think is modest and what is not.

The Bible doesn't say its wrong to cuss. It speaks of swearing, but that is in regards to oaths. Should Christians cuss?

The Bible doesn't explicitly name a lot of things that are a part of our society, but standards are boundaries we set that keep away such reproach out of the church. All these things the world does, but Christians should not. IMO this is how standards seperate us from the world.

I thought you were speaking of dress standards before?

I agree that these are the types of standards that separate us, though I dare say, I don't find the idea of doing any of the things we would refrain from that you mentioned here to be one bit appealing.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by ApostolicKitty

I don't find putting peer pressure on people to be acceptable. Influence is fine, but influence them to follow the Word of God. Any amount of standards keeping that is not done from a genuine love of God and His leading is phony and will not last. I've seen it time and again... and these people end up being confused over it. It does not make them separate from the world either. I've seen many people who are standards keepers who are very worldly. I agree with you that doing so without God's Spirit operating in us it is pointless.

When I say peer pressure I don't mean shoving something down someone's throat. I mean peer pressure. When you were in school did anyone tell you to wear a certain kind of shoe or did you want to because the pressure you felt from everyone else doing it. When I first got into church I wanted to emulate the leaders of my local church. I wanted what I presumed they had.

Any amount of standards keeping that is not done from a genuine love of God and His leading is phony and will not last

Sometimes we try to be more spiritual than any of us really are. sometimes it is hard to tell if I am genuine or not. I like to think that I am, but Paul talked some about how when he would do good evil is present with him. God will judge our hearts, but I would say rarely are any of us perfectly holy about every thing in ourselves. There are somethings that I do because I just know they are right.


I know very few standard keepers who are worldly. I've known them to be mean, cold , and calloused but not worldly. Hypothetically speaking, a Mennonite may be mean, but I wouldn't say worldly. Maybe our definitions of worldly are different. I guess it would depend on what standards they are keeping.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by ApostolicKitty

I thought you were speaking of dress standards before?

I agree that these are the types of standards that separate us, though I dare say, I don't find the idea of doing any of the things we would refrain from that you mentioned here to be one bit appealing.

I am talking about standards in general, but dress standards are definitely included. Just because the standards I mentioned earlier aren't appealing to you, they maybe for others. It seems to me by the sound of this post you are casting judgment on those who would do them. Maybe I am reading between the lines, but I getting the feeling that you are thinking that a Christian shouldn't want to do these things. (BTW, I agree)

If this be the case, then you have standards (that you would judge by) that go beyond what scripture explicitly teaches. The Bible doesn't explicitly forbid any of these things. My point is we all have personal standards by which we judge by whether we admit it or not. If we can only hold the bar to the ones that specifically say thou shalt not, then there is very little teaching necessary.

[ApostolicKitty]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

When I say peer pressure I don't mean shoving something down someone's throat. I mean peer pressure. When you were in school did anyone tell you to wear a certain kind of shoe or did you want to because the pressure you felt from everyone else doing it. When I first got into church I wanted to emulate the leaders of my local church. I wanted what I presumed they had.

I really was not phased by peer pressure when I was in school. I tended to do my own thing and if people didn't like it. Well, I didn't care. However, what you described here in your experience with going to church I would classify as being influenced.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Sometimes we try to be more spiritual than any of us really are. sometimes it is hard to tell if I am genuine or not. I like to think that I am, but Paul talked some about how when he would do good evil is present with him. God will judge our hearts, but I would say rarely are any of us perfectly holy about every thing in ourselves. There are somethings that I do because I just know they are right.

I just meant genuine, as in "not fake". Surely you know when you are being real and when you are not... even if in your being real you might be real wrong. I know I've been real wrong plenty of times, but it certainly was not for show.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I know very few standard keepers who are worldly. I've known them to be mean, cold , and calloused but not worldly. Hypothetically speaking, a Mennonite may be mean, but I wouldn't say worldly. Maybe our definitions of worldly are different. I guess it would depend on what standards they are keeping.

In this instance, I was speaking of people who keep the dress standards, but will go out and fornicate, curse, etc.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I am talking about standards in general, but dress standards are definitely included. Just because the standards I mentioned earlier aren't appealing to you, they maybe for others. It seems to me by the sound of this post you are casting judgment on those who would do them. Maybe I am reading between the lines, but I getting the feeling that you are thinking that a Christian shouldn't want to do these things. (BTW, I agree)

It's impossible not to make a judgment call on what people do, but, yes, I do think these things should be unappealling to any Holy Ghost filled person who has grown in the Lord.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If this be the case, then you have standards (that you would judge by) that go beyond what scripture explicitly teaches. The Bible doesn't explicitly forbid any of these things. My point is we all have personal standards by which we judge by whether we admit it or not. If we can only hold the bar to the ones that specifically say thou shalt not, then there is very little teaching necessary.

All true.. and, of course I have standards. Everyone does... even if they are low. I am betting the halter-top to church, bikini-at-the-beach person you mentioned earlier has standards. She probably wouldn't wear her undergarments publically, though, in my opinion, there is no difference in the two.

And, thank you for clarifying you meant standards in general -- not just clothing.

[Aquila]

Good Samaritan, I love you bro. I can feel your tender spirit and I love it. We still might have some disagreements, but you're alright in my book.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The Bible doesn't say it is a sin to gamble. Are casino's a place for a Christian?

Honestly, it depends. Is the Christian on vacation with money they saved up to play with so that it doesn't negatively affect their budget? Some of the entertainment in Vegas us a bit risqué, but in most cases a Christian can avoid that if it offends their spiritual sensibilities. I think it's a matter of personal conviction.

The Bible doesn't say it is sin to drink alcohol. Should a christian go to bars and drink beer as long as they don't get drunk.

I've gone to a bar with my grandfather. Been to the VA and sat at the bar with him too. I've had a couple beers with family on my dad's side and the guys from work on occasion. Applebee's has a bar, nearly every restaurant has a bar. I've sat at the bar and ordered food because they had the best view of a game. Some churches have "theology on tap" kind of ministry where a Christian bar tender (yes, there are Christian bar tenders) will allow a church to cordon off a portion of the facility and host a meeting where the speaker addresses more mature topics and even takes questions from those attending. Anyone is free to listen or ask questions.

The Bible doesn't its a sin for women to wear bikinis. Yes, it speaks of modesty, but there are no definitions. individuals can say what they think is modest and what is not.

I believe the Bible mentions the "thigh" being "nakedness", so anything above the knee and below the hips would qualify.

Exodus 28:42
And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:

Of course, the "thigh" is also a Hebrew euphemism for a woman's more intimate area.

I'd say the issue is time and place. In mixed company... it might be too much skin. If it is family or just girls, there isn't a real issue. Also, those that I know who wear bikinis also wear beach robes or shirts that cover them when they aren't in the water. I live in Ohio. I've rarely had any issue with standards relating to swimwear. But if I lived in Florida or California, I might feel differently. So, again, it can be an area of personal conviction.

The Bible doesn't say its wrong to cuss. It speaks of swearing, but that is in regards to oaths. Should Christians cuss?

I think the Bible is clear that we aren't to cuss:

Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 12:34-37 - 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Romans 3:14 - Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:

Ephesians 4:29 - Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Ephesians 5:4 - Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

James 3:10 - Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

So, I believe the Bible is clear against cursing. Remember, Isaiah was a man with unclean lips, evidently he had some struggles with cursing. However, God purified his mouth when the angel touched his lips with a burning coal. No wiggle room on cursing. One's only real option is to confess it and seek to control their tongue.

The Bible doesn't explicitly name a lot of things that are a part of our society, but standards are boundaries we set that keep away such reproach out of the church. All these things the world does, but Christians should not. IMO this is how standards seperate us from the world.

I think standards often separate us from the world as it relates to fashion and recreation. However, what really separates us from the world... and moves people... is love. I've attended some legalistic churches in my past. I look back and ask myself about how many times during those years I volunteered to work in a food pantry, a soup kitchen, a clothing closet, a homeless shelter, a battered women's shelter, etc. Never. However, the house church I've been in fellowship with is big on volunteer service to those in need. Me and a few others (we call ourselves "helping hands") like volunteering at the Dayton Gospel Mission. We prepare lunch, serve lunch, and clean up. It's an all day affair. I did dishes for several hours one day. I was wet, soggy, sore, and overheated (they don't have air conditioning). But it was one of the most sacred thing's I've done. Love. Love for God and love for others. When we see someone hurting, in pain, oppressed, persecuted, treated unjustly... do we seek to ease their pain and/or stand up for them if necessary? Are we a voice of love and peace in a world filled with hatred and violence?

To me... those things mentioned above matter far more than if a woman wears a bikini or if me and the lady love decide to go to Vegas for vacation. The focus on standards often leaves us majoring in minors.

Also, the focus on standards can cause spiritual immaturity. People learn to live by the "convictions" of the pastor, the organization, or the church body they attend. They don't learn exactly what their own personal convictions are. And their convictions therefore are repressed. They don't get the spiritual growth through experience and assessment. I believe that the Holy Spirit leads and guides us. For example, the Holy Spirit has convicted me against owning a weapon. However, I don't teach that everyone should not own weapons, and I do support the 2nd Amendment. But for me, it would be sin. I see thing wrong with eating pork or shrimp. Nor do I feel convicted about Sabbath or holy day. However, anything dedicated to an idol, I will not touch. I don't see anything wrong with a glass of wine, but I'd never drink in front of a brother who has a struggle with alcoholism... even though he should have already had that demon cast out and be free.

We have to learn to walk in the Spirit. This means we all need to learn how to hear the Spirit lead and guide us in what is right and wrong for us as individuals. A blanket list of standards stunts this growth and makes cookie cutter Christians as one might make mannequins on an assembly line.

So standards aren't really all that. I'd rather see people grow into the individuals God desires them to be... and see them serve God and their fellow man in a spirit of love and humility. This is what separates us from the world. Every religion in the world has a dress code, dietary code, special days, etc. Yes, the religions of this world are FULL of "standards". So, frankly, a Christianity with a focus on "standards" is a worldly Christianity. It isn't a Spirit led servant Christianity.

[Aquila]

Don't get me wrong. Standards aren't always a bad thing. But the carnal nature of the flesh often drifts into focusing upon them because standards appeal to the carnal desire to be able to "measure" one's progress and rate it against others. They also distract attention from REAL issues. For example, think of all the threads out there discussing standards about this and standards about that. How many are serving in homeless shelters, community centers, hospitals, raising money for clean water projects in Africa, feeding the hungry, loving the unlovable and even standing up for the persecuted and oppressed... even if they aren't saved and "sanctified"?

It's almost like we have a generation of Spirit filled believers standing in front of fully length mirrors checking themselves, straightening ties, etc... while people are starving to death and a world is going to hell in a hand basket. Standards can distract us from the things that truly are far more important.

[shazeep]

amen.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Don't get me wrong. Standards aren't always a bad thing. But the carnal nature of the flesh often drifts into focusing upon them because standards appeal to the carnal desire to be able to "measure" one's progress and rate it against others. They also distract attention from REAL issues. For example, think of all the threads out there discussing standards about this and standards about that. How many are serving in homeless shelters, community centers, hospitals, raising money for clean water projects in Africa, feeding the hungry, loving the unlovable and even standing up for the persecuted and oppressed... even if they aren't saved and "sanctified"?

It's almost like we have a generation of Spirit filled believers standing in front of fully length mirrors checking themselves, straightening ties, etc... while people are starving to death and a world is going to hell in a hand basket. Standards can distract us from the things that truly are far more important.

Brother, the observance of standards has DIRECTLY attributed to me finding an open door to win souls to the Lord over the years. One guy I worked with "tripped hard" on my standards to the point of me teaching him the rest. He was converted and became a conservative saint, then made me a partner in his business, changing our lives financially forever!

It all started with him "tripping" on my standards....


He has a photo album full of souls he has won to the Lord himself!(and he is conservative)

[KeptByTheWord]

Having personal convictions, and living out those convictions sincerely and humbly before the Lord and others.... is a powerful thing.

Having a "standard" that the group you are a part of believes in, and you only keep the "standard" to maintain your status in the group, is where the road parts ways. Your act of keeping the "standard" actually becomes a stench in the nostrils of God, if it is only done to please man, while having a heart that is full of evil.

So, I don't bash those who keep and hold a standard... if they are doing it as unto the Lord. I respect that, and actually all those who call themselves Christian should have a mode of separation from the evil that is present around them.

But I do have a problem when a certain standard becomes tied in with salvation, because that is when the spirit of the Pharisees can become prevalent - which would be a group of people following a list of rules that they hope covers up their evil hearts.