Angels reproducing with humans possible?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Because you put the examples in quotes I could not see them and respond

Isaiah 7:14 (NET)
14 For this reason the sovereign master himself will give you a confirming sign. Look, this young woman is about to conceive and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV)

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

The KJV is not a translation from the Hebrew word. The actual Hebrew word means "young maiden"

So the NET is more accurate there. It doesn't mean that young woman was NOT a virgin but the word itself just does not mean "virgin". It can obviously refer to a young woman who still is a virgin. So in this respect the NET bible did not bow to pressure and mistranslate it to satisfy our doctrinal bias.

You can learn a lot by reading the NET and the translational notes. The NET is a faithful translation of the Hebrew. Had it been translated from the Greek Septuagint things would be different

26 tn Traditionally, "virgin." Because this verse from Isaiah is quoted in Mat_1:23 in connection with Jesus' birth, the Isaiah passage has been regarded since the earliest Christian times as a prophecy of Christ's virgin birth. Much debate has taken place over the best way to translate this Hebrew term, although ultimately one's view of the doctrine of the virgin birth of Christ is unaffected.

Though the Hebrew word used here, עַלְמָה ('almāh), can sometimes refer to a woman who is a virgin (Gen_24:43), it does not carry this meaning inherently. The word is simply the feminine form of the corresponding masculine noun עֶלֶם ('elem, "young man"; cf. 1Sa_17:56; 1Sa_20:22). The Aramaic and Ugaritic cognate terms are both used of women who are not virgins. The word seems to pertain to age, not sexual experience, and would normally be translated "young woman."

The LXX translator(s) who later translated the Book of Isaiah into Greek sometime between the second and first century b.c., however, rendered the Hebrew term by the more specific Greek word παρθένος (parthenos), which does mean "virgin" in a technical sense. This is the Greek term that also appears in the citation of Isa_7:14 in Mat_1:23.

Therefore, regardless of the meaning of the term in the OT context, in the NT Matthew's usage of the Greek term παρθένος (parthenos) clearly indicates that from his perspective a virgin birth has taken place.

Strong's and BDB both give the he idea of virgin coming from "elem" (5954) - something kept out of sight. That is more accurate than young lass.

And, BTW, I don't know if you have ever noticed this, but you type out these long posts from another source and they end of meaning what Strong's has in the first place in a nutshell.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Strong's and BDB both give the he idea of virgin coming from "elem" (5954) - something kept out of sight. That is more accurate than young lass.

And, BTW, I don't know if you have ever noticed this, but you type out these long posts from another source and they end of meaning what Strong's has in the first place in a nutshell.

Once again all Strongs does is list HOW a word is translated in the KJV

My quotations support the very thing I asserted

The Hebrew word there does NOT mean "Virgin". There is another word for virgin

You mentioned BDB and ELEM...The Hebrew word in Is 7;14 is NOT Elem. It's Alama!

And Hebrew word 5954 in Strongs is ‛ălal
al-al'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5953 (in the sense of thrusting oneself in), to enter; causatively to introduce: - bring in, come in, go in.

So I have no idea what you are going on about

And this is what BDB says
†עַלְמָה S5959 TWOT1630b GK6625 n.f. young woman (ripe sexually; maid or newly married);—ע׳ Gn 24:43 (J), Ex 2:8 (E), Pr 30:19 Is 7:14; pl. עֲלָמוֹת ψ 68:26 Ct 1:3; 6:8; עַל־עֲלָמוֹת to (the voice of) young women, either lit., or of soprano or falsetto of boys: 1 Ch 15:20 ψ 9:1 (read עַל־עֲלָמוֹת לַבֵּן [for עַל־מוּת לַבֵּן, ‘voce virgines a pueris decantandum,’ Thes), 46:1; 48:15 (read עַל־עֲלָמוֹת [for עַל־מוּת]; tr. prob. to 49:1).

Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (2000). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (electronic ed.) (761). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems.

I don't see agreement with Strongs there

Dictionaries often just tell us NOW a certain translation translates a word without giving a reason (such as Strongs) and others might mention how a word is rendered in the A.V. but give the more accurate translation

This is why I warned against using Strongs or for that matter the "BDB" on Esword. That is not truly the BDB.

Here is Gesenius, the most renownly recognized Hebrew authority

f. of the preceding, a girl of marriageable age, like the Arab. غُلَامَةُ, غَيْلَمُ; Syr. ܥܰܠܺܡܬܐܳ; Ch. עֻלֵּמְתָּא, i.q. נַעֲרָה, and Gr. νεᾶνις (by which word the Hebrew עַלְמָה is rendered by the LXX. Ps. 68:26; and Aqu., Symm., Theod., Isa. 7:14), Gen. 24:43; Ex. 2:8; Prov. 30:19. Pl. עֲלָמוֹת Ps. 68:26; Cant. 1:3; 6:8. Used of a youthful spouse recently married, Isa. 7:14 (compare בְּתוּלָה Joel 1:8). [See note at the end of the art.] The notion of unspotted virginity is not that which this word conveys, for which the proper word is בְּתוּלָה (see Cant. 6:8, and Prov. loc. cit; so that in Isa. loc. cit. the LXX. have incorrectly rendered it παρθένος); neither does it convey the idea of the unmarried state, as has of late been maintained by Hengstenberg, (Christol. des A. T. ii. 69), but of the nubile state and puberty. See Comment. on Isa. loc. cit.—עַל עֲלָמוֹת in the manner of virgins, nach Iungfrauen Weife (see עַל No. 1, a, ζ), i.e. with the virgin voice, sharp, Germ. soprano, opp. to the lower voice of men, 1 Ch. 15:20 (see as to this passage under the root נָצַח No. 1 Piel); Ps. 46:1. Forkel (Gesch. der Musik, i. p. 142) understood it to mean virgin measures (compare Germ. Iungfrauweis), but this does not suit the context, in 1 Ch. loc. cit.

Gesenius, W., & Tregelles, S. P. (2003). Gesenius’ Hebrew and Chaldee lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures (634). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

Ok? You have to discern between what a word MEANS and how a word is USED. Since the word refers to a young maiden it can be used to refer to a married woman, unmarried, pregnant or even a virgin. it does not specify virginity

All Strongs does or did was list HOW the KJV translators rendered a word. He did not correct it or stipulate whether it was correct or wrong. ALL he did was list HOW they rendered it.

Ive said that over and over. There is a reason why it's called "Strongs Concordance of the King James Version"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong%27s_Concordance
Strong's Concordance is not a translation of the Bible nor is it intended as a translation tool. The use of Strong's numbers is not a substitute for professional translation of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into English by those with formal training in ancient languages and the literature of the cultures in which the Bible was written.


Since Strong's Concordance identifies the original words in Hebrew and Greek, Strong's numbers are sometimes misinterpreted by those without adequate training to change the Bible from its accurate meaning simply by taking the words out of cultural context. The use of Strong's numbers does not consider figures of speech, metaphors, idioms, common phrases, cultural references, references to historical events, or alternate meanings used by those of the time period to express their thoughts in their own language at the time. As such, professionals and amateurs alike must consult a number of contextual tools to reconstruct these cultural backgrounds. Many scholarly Greek and Hebrew Lexicons (e.g., Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Thayer's Greek Dictionary, and Vine's Bible Dictionary) also use Strong's numbers for cross-referencing, encouraging hermeneutical approaches to study.

[Praxeas]

Strongs
This guy has a good read

http://www.armchair-theology.net/bib...s-concordance/

What’s the Big Deal?

This sounds like a great resource that we should use more! While it’s true that Strong’s concordance (and similar resources) is a powerful Bible study tool, it is abused almost as much as the Bible itself.
How can we identify ways in which Strong’s is misused

Please read this. The above is just a snippet. You guys are doing yourselves a huge disservice by relying on Strongs.

[Praxeas]

Guys, I have the REAL BDB. You can view it on BibleHub. Go to Bible Hub and to the verse Is 7:14

Then click on the Strongs Number. It will take you to a page where you'll see Strongs but then you can scroll down to the BDB...the real one that I actually have

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5959.htm

And when you do, notice that Strongs is a CONCORDANCE...It merely lists how that word was rendered in the KJV

[Praxeas]

BTW, in case anyone is wondering what Strongs left out.

Alma is the FEMININE form of Elem

Elem means a young man.

Thats all. Young woman. Young man. The KJV and others rendered it "virgin" to match the Matthew narrative

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

As far as Translations go, I don't like the KJV. I prefer others.

The KJV was translated into a language nobody uses anymore except Shakespearean actors and wanna be prophets

It also was translated at a time when our knowledge of ancient Greek was not as good as it is today

Man that's harsh.

I know that the KJV has a few problems, but I still have a fondness for it.
I like to read it and then I check the other versions to get the full and clear meaning of the verses I am reading.

No I am not a KJV Only fanatic, but neither am I a Shakespearian actor, maybe a little bit of a wanna be prophet.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Man that's harsh.

I know that the KJV has a few problems, but I still have a fondness for it.
I like to read it and then I check the other versions to get the full and clear meaning of the verses I am reading.

No I am not a KJV Only fanatic, but neither am I a Shakespearian actor, maybe a little bit of a wanna be prophet.

I tend to be more critical of the translation and language than the Greek Text issues

But I have encountered a lot of people that simply have a hard to reading it, let alone understanding it particularly in light of modern English

[Praxeas]

BTW I do use the NKJV from time to time.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Once again all Strongs does is list HOW a word is translated in the KJV

My quotations support the very thing I asserted

The Hebrew word there does NOT mean "Virgin". There is another word for virgin

You mentioned BDB and ELEM...The Hebrew word in Is 7;14 is NOT Elem. It's Alama!

And Hebrew word 5954 in Strongs is ‛ălal
al-al'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5953 (in the sense of thrusting oneself in), to enter; causatively to introduce: - bring in, come in, go in.

So I have no idea what you are going on about

And this is what BDB says
†עַלְמָה S5959 TWOT1630b GK6625 n.f. young woman (ripe sexually; maid or newly married);—ע׳ Gn 24:43 (J), Ex 2:8 (E), Pr 30:19 Is 7:14; pl. עֲלָמוֹת ψ 68:26 Ct 1:3; 6:8; עַל־עֲלָמוֹת to (the voice of) young women, either lit., or of soprano or falsetto of boys: 1 Ch 15:20 ψ 9:1 (read עַל־עֲלָמוֹת לַבֵּן [for עַל־מוּת לַבֵּן, ‘voce virgines a pueris decantandum,’ Thes), 46:1; 48:15 (read עַל־עֲלָמוֹת [for עַל־מוּת]; tr. prob. to 49:1).

Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (2000). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (electronic ed.) (761). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems.

I don't see agreement with Strongs there

Dictionaries often just tell us NOW a certain translation translates a word without giving a reason (such as Strongs) and others might mention how a word is rendered in the A.V. but give the more accurate translation

This is why I warned against using Strongs or for that matter the "BDB" on Esword. That is not truly the BDB.

Here is Gesenius, the most renownly recognized Hebrew authority

f. of the preceding, a girl of marriageable age, like the Arab. غُلَامَةُ, غَيْلَمُ; Syr. ܥܰܠܺܡܬܐܳ; Ch. עֻלֵּמְתָּא, i.q. נַעֲרָה, and Gr. νεᾶνις (by which word the Hebrew עַלְמָה is rendered by the LXX. Ps. 68:26; and Aqu., Symm., Theod., Isa. 7:14), Gen. 24:43; Ex. 2:8; Prov. 30:19. Pl. עֲלָמוֹת Ps. 68:26; Cant. 1:3; 6:8. Used of a youthful spouse recently married, Isa. 7:14 (compare בְּתוּלָה Joel 1:8). [See note at the end of the art.] The notion of unspotted virginity is not that which this word conveys, for which the proper word is בְּתוּלָה (see Cant. 6:8, and Prov. loc. cit; so that in Isa. loc. cit. the LXX. have incorrectly rendered it παρθένος); neither does it convey the idea of the unmarried state, as has of late been maintained by Hengstenberg, (Christol. des A. T. ii. 69), but of the nubile state and puberty. See Comment. on Isa. loc. cit.—עַל עֲלָמוֹת in the manner of virgins, nach Iungfrauen Weife (see עַל No. 1, a, ζ), i.e. with the virgin voice, sharp, Germ. soprano, opp. to the lower voice of men, 1 Ch. 15:20 (see as to this passage under the root נָצַח No. 1 Piel); Ps. 46:1. Forkel (Gesch. der Musik, i. p. 142) understood it to mean virgin measures (compare Germ. Iungfrauweis), but this does not suit the context, in 1 Ch. loc. cit.

Gesenius, W., & Tregelles, S. P. (2003). Gesenius’ Hebrew and Chaldee lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures (634). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

Ok? You have to discern between what a word MEANS and how a word is USED. Since the word refers to a young maiden it can be used to refer to a married woman, unmarried, pregnant or even a virgin. it does not specify virginity

All Strongs does or did was list HOW the KJV translators rendered a word. He did not correct it or stipulate whether it was correct or wrong. ALL he did was list HOW they rendered it.

Ive said that over and over. There is a reason why it's called "Strongs Concordance of the King James Version"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong%27s_Concordance
Strong's Concordance is not a translation of the Bible nor is it intended as a translation tool. The use of Strong's numbers is not a substitute for professional translation of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into English by those with formal training in ancient languages and the literature of the cultures in which the Bible was written.


Since Strong's Concordance identifies the original words in Hebrew and Greek, Strong's numbers are sometimes misinterpreted by those without adequate training to change the Bible from its accurate meaning simply by taking the words out of cultural context. The use of Strong's numbers does not consider figures of speech, metaphors, idioms, common phrases, cultural references, references to historical events, or alternate meanings used by those of the time period to express their thoughts in their own language at the time. As such, professionals and amateurs alike must consult a number of contextual tools to reconstruct these cultural backgrounds. Many scholarly Greek and Hebrew Lexicons (e.g., Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Thayer's Greek Dictionary, and Vine's Bible Dictionary) also use Strong's numbers for cross-referencing, encouraging hermeneutical approaches to study.

Wow, that was long and we still ended up with a virgin who bore Jesus Christ.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW, in case anyone is wondering what Strongs left out.

Alma is the FEMININE form of Elem

Elem means a young man.

Thats all. Young woman. Young man. The KJV and others rendered it "virgin" to match the Matthew narrative

"The vast majority of Strong’s misuse incidences are not malicious. Nor are they heretical. They are typically just errors. Please don’t attack someone for simply using Strong’s in an improper way; but still, let’s not make errors! We need to correct someone properly."

http://www.armchair-theology.net/bib...rdance-part-2/