For those that left the UPC... - Page 24

DrPhil · #**231** 05-28-2010, 09:48 AM

Point well taken. If that were the only evidence it would be thrown out of court for lack of evidence. However, we also know that we can't say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit. I'm saying that receiving Christ is a work of the Holy Spirit, just as those in Acts 19 were already believers who had net yet received the Holy Spirit. It's a different work of the Holy Spirit and one that every believer should have. I think we probably agree on that.

Truthseeker · #**232** 05-28-2010, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Point well taken. If that were the only evidence it would be thrown out of court for lack of evidence. However, we also know that we can't say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit. I'm saying that receiving Christ is a work of the Holy Spirit, just as those in Acts 19 were already believers who had net yet received the Holy Spirit. It's a different work of the Holy Spirit and one that every believer should have. I think we probably agree on that.

I would take that scripture alittle different.

Can someone really say "Jesus is lord" except by having the spirit? Not saying it alone means they have it but can't say and mean it but by the spirit. Christ can't lord in someone life if they don't have it.

mizpeh · #**233** 05-28-2010, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Point well taken. If that were the only evidence it would be thrown out of court for lack of evidence. However, we also know that we can't say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit. I'm saying that receiving Christ is a work of the Holy Spirit, just as those in Acts 19 were already believers who had net yet received the Holy Spirit. It's a different work of the Holy Spirit and one that every believer should have. I think we probably agree on that.

Paul called fellow Jews who were not Christians, brethren. It is possible that Ananias called Paul, brother, because of he was a Jew and not a brother in the Lord. To be without the Holy Spirit is to be without the Spirit of Christ...they don't belong to Christ.

Mirth1981 · #**234** 05-28-2010, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I left the UPC about 19 years ago. It was one of the most painful decisions of my life. If I could have become a licensed minister I would have but I could not in good conscience sign the license agreement. I pastor a non-denominational spirit-filled church where I have been for 17 years.

My advice is that you and your husband would be best off to wait until you are in complete unity about it. My wfe was right by my side when we left, but it took a lot of discussions before we came to that conclusion togher. I have had to develop an internal relatioship that replaced a holiness that focues predonminantly on "external" issues. Our church is doing great. Check out our website at www.ccc-si.com

Good advice. I agee about the internal relationship being where it should be first. It's amazing how much people replace what should be important with what isn't important in their relationship with God because that is how they are taught...so they focus on the unimportant stuff thinking that they're okay. It's sad.

Glad that you and your family are doing well.

Hope you enjoy this forum as much as I have so far.

DrPhil · #**235** 05-28-2010, 01:55 PM

I agree that one must have the Holy Spirit to say it and mean it. This suggests that God initiates our salvation and we respond. Having said that, it is clear to me that many have had a Holy Spirit initiated conversion experience by which they said "Jesus is Lord" before they spoke in tongues.

mizpeh · #**236** 05-28-2010, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I agree that one must have the Holy Spirit to say it and mean it. This suggests that God initiates our salvation and we respond. Having said that, it is clear to me that many have had a Holy Spirit initiated conversion experience by which they said "Jesus is Lord" before they spoke in tongues.

No man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him. Of course the Spirit leads folks to believing in Christ as Lord and repentance but that is not the same as "Christ in us". It may be "Christ with us" but not "Christ in us".

pelathais · #**237** 05-28-2010, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeHardy07

...

LOL! Standards are NOT works! They aren't even good EXCUSES for works! And performance during a church service isn't works EITHER! LOL!!! How twisted things are nowadays! LOL!

If you laugh hard enough you may be able to prevent yourself from thinking about this issue.

Romans 4:1-13.

Abraham was accounted "RIGHTEOUS" because of his faith.

The extra-Biblical "standards" are works. They are a requirement that has been added to faith and the simple practice of "obeying the Gospel." They may represent noteworthy and worthwhile aims - but they are still "works" and as such they do not save anyone from anything.

DrPhil · #**238** 05-28-2010, 06:07 PM

I would have to respectfully disagree with that one. Pentecost was clearly a second work of the Holy Spirit in those believers lives. After the resurrection Jesus breathed on the disciples and told them to "recieve the Holy Spirit" Was that breath in suspended animation until Pentecost? I don't think so. It is a critical point because it affects the way we view the rest of the Christian world. To say that only those who have spoken in tongues are saved kicks out all the rungs of the ladder of the Protestant Reformation as well as faithful catholics who before the resurrection had deep personal relationships with Christ like Teresa of Avila. From her writings it appears she may have even spoken in tongues as she describes ecstatic utterances in prayer which she described as "the rain."

mfblume · #**239** 05-28-2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I would have to respectfully disagree with that one. Pentecost was clearly a second work of the Holy Spirit in those believers lives. After the resurrection Jesus breathed on the disciples and told them to "recieve the Holy Spirit" Was that breath in suspended animation until Pentecost? I don't think so. It is a critical point because it affects the way we view the rest of the Christian world. To say that only those who have spoken in tongues are saved kicks out all the rungs of the ladder of the Protestant Reformation as well as faithful catholics who before the resurrection had deep personal relationships with Christ like Teresa of Avila. From her writings it appears she may have even spoken in tongues as she describes ecstatic utterances in prayer which she described as "the rain."

The bible does not teach what happened when Jesus breathed on them. It could very well have simply been a FORESHADOW of the day of Pentecost, when the mighty rushing wind blew and they were filled!

Truthseeker · #**240** 05-28-2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

The bible does not teach what happened when Jesus breathed on them. It could very well have simply been a FORESHADOW of the day of Pentecost, when the mighty rushing wind blew and they were filled!

yeah, kinda like when he said drink this my blood shed for you and eat this is my body broken for you which was said before his blood was shed and body broken.

This makes it clear for me:

John 7:38-39

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
KJV