No Double Dipping? General Board votes against ..

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Under this resolution's qualification of what an org is ... a serious case can be made that the AWCF is an org.

(THE FOLLOWING IS A PARTIAL RESPONSE MADE IN ANOTHER THREAD)


The AWCF is inclusionary by its nature and includes over 180 affiliate organizations under its umbrella.

The WPF by contrast is exclusionary by nature and a major catalyst to its formation in present form was the passage of Res 4 by the UPCI in Tampa. Most importantly it was intended from its inception to provide an alternative to the UPCI, to deny that now would be somewhat disingenuous by the leadership.

However, ... I personally believe the WPF men to be men of integrity and would not presume to impinge their motives.

Which brings us back to the original premise of the thread; organizational consistency.

Ignoring the foundational intent of the various organizations, and looking at the matter dispassionately, Bishoph has a valid point: AWCF does also have HQ, organizational hierarchy, an official magazine, missions board, Bible Quizzing, Articles of Faith, are involved in licensing, regularly hold meetings and conferences etc. IF the UPCI were to enforce dual membership ban against the WPF and not the AWCF it would indeed be hard to justify.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Most of the WWPF churches have already unaffiliated themselves, haven't they? An unaffiliated church doesn't really have any property entanglements with the org.

If there are Christmas For Christ churches who received UPCI funds and there was some sort of contractual stipulation then those guys just need to step up to the plate and show us all that this is really about "principles" and not some sort of grab for position.

If a pastor feels led by God or by his own deep convictions to join the WPF then he needs to resign his church if it has any sort financial agreement with the UPC.

What sort of scenarios do you see that would be litigated?

You have already listed a couple of the most likely. "Need to" being the operative word. If a UPCI district were to "enforce" the resolution of exclusion it is not unforeseeable in this day and age it could end up in litigation.

There would, in my opinion, most likely be grounds for the "excluded" party to defeat a motion for summary judgment. (This in no way infers an ultimately successful lawsuit). So why file?

Besides the inherit need to fight back when one feels bullied (especially in America) some could perceive it to be a win-win situation. If the UPCI through some fluke should lose, man what a body blow! If the WPF pastor loses then there will finally be 1916 style justification "we was forced out against our will, see we told you so".

To date I would mostly agree with your stance, it is the WPF that is walking away. A picture of some poor pastor being forcibly evicted from "his" property (no matter how legally, ethically, or morally correct the action) would go a LONG way in the propaganda war.

[bishoph]

I agree the line is drawn, and many will make their decision. I think the next big hurdle will be whether the men who choose to go with the WPF will be put "under question." IMO that will also determine how many leave the UPCI. Because of the real or perceived stature of the WPF leadership, putting them "under question" will appear adversarial on the part of the UPCI and will cause some to leave that would have otherwise not even considered it.

Some districts, prior to the GB decision, had already started sending out letters to others effectively banning ex-UPCI ministers from ministering not just district events but local church events as well. I think that is a travesty. That kind of action is old strong arm mafia style leadership IMO. In essence what that says is, if you leave the UPCI because you choose to fellowship in another fellowship/organization you have to break all relationships built over the years, and cease from fellowshipping with those that are your close friends and possibly relatives. IMO that is just wrong. It was wrong when they did it with the AMF, it was wrong when they did it with the men who left in 92 and it is wrong today IMHO.

[Jehoram]

Well, it's been an interesting conversation folks.

Do we have it all figured out just yet?

[A_PoMo]

Came across this today while reading and thought of this whole split and the reasons why it was inevitable,

"...there is scarcely an error in doctrine or a failure in applying Christian ethics that cannot be traced finally to imperfect and ignoble thoughts about God." A.W. Tozer, in "Knowledge of the Holy".

It is my belief that everything going down right now is only the symptoms of more systemic issues.

[MissBrattified]

That's a great quote, A_PoMo. I love the ones in your signature, too.

Random: If you have an iGoogle home page, you can put in an A.W. Tozer devotional gadget.

Here's the devotional from today:

" That Amazing Grace!
The human heart is heretical by nature. Popular religious beliefs should be checked carefully against the Word of God, for they are almost certain to be wrong. Legalism, for instance, is natural to the human heart. Grace in its true New Testament meaning is foreign to human reason, not because it is contrary to reason but because it lies beyond it. The doctrine of grace had to be revealed; it could not have been discovered. The essence of legalism is self-atonement. The seeker tries to make himself acceptable to God by some act of restitution, or by self-punishment or the feeling of regret. The desire to be pleasing to God is commendable certainly, but the effort to please God by self-effort is not, for it assumes that sin once done may be undone, an assumption wholly false.

Prayer
O Christ, I could never atone for my sins. You have done it. I receive the forgiveness You give. I glory in Your grace.

Scripture
Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit.
— Psalm 32:1-2

Thought
O the blessedness of sins forgiven, knowing that God no longer counts them against us. The amazing grace of God!"

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

Came across this today while reading and thought of this whole split and the reasons why it was inevitable,

"...there is scarcely an error in doctrine or a failure in applying Christian ethics that cannot be traced finally to imperfect and ignoble thoughts about God." A.W. Tozer, in "Knowledge of the Holy".

It is my belief that everything going down right now is only the symptoms of more systemic issues.

Deep thoughts. Great post!