Sleeping with Uncle Jeff

[tamor]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I don't know how a "woman" wouldn't be aware. The way we're wired I don't know how that could be going on and you not know something was out of whack.

Goodness, if my baby 3 doors down the hallway whimpered in the night, I heard. And I know.........she wasn't the mom of the girl in question.

Anyhow.......... like I say there are some things that just seem odd to me and not just about this situation in the bed either.

I didn't everytime. Their dad was up before I got the chance to hear them cry. He was a very light sleeper and I am not. And that didn't make me a bad mom.

The out of whack part I can agree with. But not the sleeping. Some people just crash when they go to sleep and it takes alot to bring them back to life, so to speak.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by tamor

I didn't everytime. Their dad was up before I could hear. He was a very light sleeper and I am not. And that didn't make me a bad mom.

The out of whack part I can agree with. But not the sleeping. Some people just crash when they go to sleep and it takes alot to bring them back to life, so to speak.

My husband is a very light sleeper. I wake easily but don't sleep particularly light or heavy, but I'm SURE if it had been me lying there between the two I'd have come conscious and been cognizant of what was happening.

I don't know ..... but when I get the picture of this in my head it's just very strange is all.

Carry on.

[tamor]

Originally Posted by Felicity

My husband is a very light sleeper. I wake easily but don't sleep particularly light or heavy.

I don't know. When I get the picture of this in my head it's just very strange is all.

Carry on.

It is strange. The whole thing is strange and sick and sad. But I just don't think we can automatically say the wife had to know.

[tamor]

Originally Posted by He's My Friend

Very Strange indeed.

With all the abuse in the news today, you would think people would be less trusting.

I trust very few people when it comes to my children !


An incident happened about 3 yrs ago that caused me to take note of a situation.

I was out playing with my children one day, (ages 2 and 11).

The man nexr door (elderly, church going man, although not Apostolic) was
riding around in a golf cart, and asked my son, and 2 other small neighbor
boys if they wanted to take a ride.

I was standing there, and I did not see a problem, until...........
the children took their seats on the cart, and the man headed the cart in the direction of the secluded woods.

(I thought he was going to ride them in his yard).

At that moment, it felt as if my heart dropped to the ground.

"Something" quickened my spirit, and I began to run as fast I could run, attempting to catch up with the cart.

I was holding the baby, running, and screaming my sons name.

I was praying, as hard as I could, asking God to make that man stop.

At that time, the cart stopped, and I informed my son that I needed him, and that his little sister wanted him.

The man continued on into the woods with the other boys.

My son told me he was starting to get afraid, and that when the neighbor stopped the cart, he said, "Your mom wants you, I don't think she trusts me".

To this day I know something was not right about that incident, and I still Praise the Lord for protection.

Amen!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Nina

Why is it only law for Pastors?
Does ANYONE with this knowledge have the MORAL obligation to report this?
That's one of the disturbing facets of this.
If Ken Haney, or anyone else, has "vague" knowledge of situations shouldn't they be reported?

Nina

The reason I ask is because I myself have knowledge of "certain irregularities"
How far back are these incidents convictable?
What if You promised the victim Your silence.
We need a lawyer!!!!!!!!!
Newman, Where are You?

I'm just getting caught with today's postings so maybe others have already answered this...

It's not just pastors, but the laws were directed at religious leaders primarily. Usually doctors, educators, psychologists and even law enforcement are all named specifically as being responsible for reporting.

I'm not certain about your other questions. If it's truly a case that concerns you you may want to talk with an attorney in your area who can answer your questions. There are often "pro bono" or free legal clinics that are offered where attorneys volunteer their time to answer questions like this.

[pelathais]

I do not in any way want to be misunderstood - there is simply no excuse for the types of abuse under discussion here, and no excuse for covering it up. But some things have been said both in that article and on this thread that would at least appear to implicate the UPC and a couple of officials in this particular case. While it is possible that there have been cases of misconduct - I personally resigned my office and ministry over just such a case of an official trying to cover for a buddy - I have also witnessed UPC officials going the extra mile to protect churches and saints from predators.

Concerning this case: the only statement we have from the Texas District is a single non-committal sounding phrase from the DS. It seems odd that this is all he had to say.

And especially concerning the "interview" with KH at GC and what the writer perceived as a brush off. KH's statements are indeed correct. For better or for worse, the national org cannot get involved unless a matter is brought to them via the Judicial Procedure. This is one big part of the way in which the UPCI in North America operates. All ministerial questions and licensing questions are handled at the district level.

The one exception is failure to sign the AS or failure to pay the quarterly dues. Anything involving a moral question is simply not part of Hazelwood's involvement.

[pelathais]

I thought that in this discussion an experience I had with a "reporter" from the Village Voice might be germane.

There was a state wide ballot question here, many years ago, to restrict the "special status" language and protection that some municipalities were giving to homosexuals. It was one of the first in the nation and was big news nationally for a brief time. It passed but was thrown out by the liberal State Supreme court.

During the campaign I worked with a state-wide org to help publicize the Amendment and unfortunately (as it turns out, unfortunately) a local pastor used my involvement to launch a publicity drive of his own. One result was that I was told to meet a "reporter" at this pastor's church on a particular afternoon and talk with her. I did so. I walked her around the main floor of the church so she could see the sanctuary. There were some Spanish language tracks in the track rack of the foyer and she was really interested in these.

There was also one of those "English Only" amendments on the ballot at that time. She seemed to be surprised that we had Spanish language material. "Didn't we support the English Only proposal as well?" No, I answered, we didn't really have much concern or interest in the English Only proposal. She didn't like that. She was obviously looking for bigots here. I was apparently a disappointment. Sadly, I was a disappointment to that pastor as well because I wasn't a bigot. Both the gays and the brethren wanted me to be foaming at the mouth and shrill. I was neither; I was just calm and trying to be articulate enough to be understood. We don't hate anybody. We felt that the special treatment language that was coming into being actually would result in bigotry. We supported the Amendment because it offered more freedom to more people without hurting anyone.

One thing that really bothered me was the way in which she took "notes." She had a spiral note pad but instead of ever writing anything she would simply draw a large squiqqly line down the page with a flourish and then rapidly and noisily turn to the next page. She went through about a dozen pages like that- sometimes two at a time.

I thought that this was certainly one of the boldest attempts at condensing shorthand that I had ever seen. I wondered how she would possibly be able to use her "notes" for recall once she got back to New York. It was then I realized that she probably didn't really want to concern herself with recall when she got back to New York. She had her story before she left. Our meeting was just an excuse for an expense account entry. I've often wondered if I even managed to get her to change her mind about our stand on "English Only" (Or our lack of a stand, really).

I never did see the article that was written and don't even know if I was named or "quoted." When the Village Voice came on line on the web I made it a point to search for some record but nothing turned up. I suppose only a visit to the East Village would answer my questions about that incident.

But from that experience, I do conclude that the Village Voice has never really engaged in investigative journalism. They have their narrative planned out in their offices before hand. Then they send out their writers on junkets to make it appear that "journalism" is taking place. This story was written in New York by editors and staff as they drank their latte. Then one of their number was the "lucky one" who was sent to get some background material- like the type of flooring at the GC hotel.

You've gotta "prove" you've been there. But really, why don't they save money and just look up the hotel's interior design on the web? Well, you don't do 4 years at Columbia to surf the web. If the paper won't pay for a few perks then the paper will lose some of its "greatest minds." So, we the reading public gets canned stories while somebody else gets an all expense paid business class junket to Tampa. The reporter most likely sat in the same type of first class airline seat that she complained "Buck's" church had paid for him to travel in.

I think it's obvious that something wrong did occur in the case under question here. By having a closed and secretive system for handling our clergy we actually invite the Village Voice and others of like mind to uncover the things we should have been uncovering ourselves.

What do you prefer, that the church take a few lumps when it cleans its own house? Or, do you prefer more write ups in the Village Voice?

[Rhoni]

#1. Babies don't have any business sleeping in bed with their parents.
#2. Relatives [children in particular] should not sleep in bed with married people.
#3. Women know and live in denial.
#4. Some culture belive that women in the family are possession of the men and there is much incest that happens in these families.


The man I spoke of before [true story] would get up out of his marriage bed [as a wife you would know when your husband gets up and where in the house he is] and go into his daughter's room and molest the cousins that were in the bed with his daughter. He would molest his granddaughters the same way. One of his daughters would take the victim role so as to protect the younger sister. The older sister left home at a young age to run off and get married to escape the home. This is often a signal something is wrong in the home.

As someone stated before...these family secrets have been in the closet and church leadership thought they were rpotecting the church but they were enabling the perpetrator to continue his victimization.

This has been a good thread with many insightful posts. I have been at work and unable to respond.

Blessings, Rhoni

[MrsMcD]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

#1. Babies don't have any business sleeping in bed with their parents.
#2. Relatives [children in particular] should not sleep in bed with married people.
#3. Women know and live in denial.
#4. Some culture believe that women in the family are possession of the men and there is much incest that happens in these families.


The man I spoke of before [true story] would get up out of his marriage bed [as a wife you would know when your husband gets up and where in the house he is] and go into his daughter's room and molest the cousins that were in the bed with his daughter. He would molest his granddaughters the same way. One of his daughters would take the victim role so as to protect the younger sister. The older sister left home at a young age to run off and get married to escape the home. This is often a signal something is wrong in the home.

As someone stated before...these family secrets have been in the closet and church leadership thought they were protecting the church but they were enabling the perpetrator to continue his victimization.

This has been a good thread with many insightful posts. I have been at work and unable to respond.

Blessings, Rhoni

What I can't understand is why people cover these things us. Situations like this hit home to me because it happened in my family. NOT by a pastor or preacher.

We had a man in our church (early 30's) that molested a family member of mine. He was the church worship leader. He, his wife, and female toddler moved from another state and UPC church to our church. My father called this man's pastor and the pastor gave him a great report. The man had attended the same church all his life. With the outstanding report this man had, who would think anything would be wrong? This man not only molested a family member of the pastor but he also was molesting his little toddler and he had molested several other girls through out the years. How could no one say anything?

His wife knew. There was no way that she could not have known. I even made a comment to her one day about him and she shrugged it off. It makes me angry now because I realize that the wife could have protected my family member but she chose to look the other way. Sick people! Church folks, worship leaders, etc. No one is exempt from being a sick person. The best we as parents can do is keep our eyes open and look for signs.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by MrsMcD

What I can't understand is why people cover these things us. Situations like this hit home to me because it happened in my family. NOT by a pastor or preacher.

We had a man in our church (early 30's) that molested a family member of mine. He was the church worship leader. He, his wife, and female toddler moved from another state and UPC church to our church. My father called this man's pastor and the pastor gave him a great report. The man had attended the same church all his life. With the outstanding report this man had, who would think anything would be wrong? This man not only molested a family member of the pastor but he also was molesting his little toddler and he had molested several other girls through out the years. How could no one say anything?

His wife knew. There was no way that she could not have known. I even made a comment to her one day about him and she shrugged it off. It makes me angry now because I realize that the wife could have protected my family member but she chose to look the other way. Sick people! Church folks, worship leaders, etc. No one is exempt from being a sick person. The best we as parents can do is keep our eyes open and look for signs.

My brother was molested from ages 9-11, during church by men in the church while church was going on. My mother has issues with God for allowing it to happen while she was serving God with all her heart, and with the leadership for covering it up.

My brother has never been the same. He is an alcoholic and loves God but cries at the altar for hours asking God to forgive him and let him speak in tongues. Molestation leads to sexual and gender identity issues as well as self-esteem issues. One of the reasons I can't deal with/counsel perpetrators is because I would like to line the perpetrators up and shoot them for all they have done to destroy so many lives, especially my only brother, my baby brother who will never quite be the same again.

I know of one prominent minister whom many of you know who prosecuted the man/youth leader who molested his sons and I say the man was a good father and Pastor for exposing and prosecuting and not allowing it to be covered up.

I know of just as many ministry people who harbor known felons in their churches without proper boundaries and accountability people in place.