**** Are the NCO and AWCF "raiding" the UPCI or providing a "safety net"? ****

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Benny ... HOGWASH!!!!

I'm looking at the bibliography right now ...

over 200 works available to the public and mostly apostolic are cited ... pre and post merger... such as the early Apostolic and Pentecostal Heralds.

He interviewed 229 people on both sides of the issue.

He also has well over 100 letters of correspondence cited.

Bernard and Hall can't even touch him in sheer volume or in scholarship.

PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME POST THE PAGES OF THE BIBLIOGRAPHY.

Brother Daniel BIBLIOGRAPHY means the books and material that the writer took his information from. It's a list of the books and material. The researcher who wants to review the writer's work has to go out and FIND the books and material for themselves. Very simple Brother Daniel why are you having such a problem? Did Fudge release the material he had acquired?

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Benny ... HOGWASH!!!!

I'm looking at the bibliography right now ...

over 200 works. available to the public and mostly apostolic are cited ... pre and post merger... such as the early Apostolic and Pentecostal Heralds.

He interviewed 229 people on both sides of the issue.

He also has well over 100 letters of correspondence.

Bernard and Hall can't even touch him sheer volume and scholarship of this work.

Yeah, I'm pretty much with Daniel on this.

I've defended (all alone at times) on FCF and NFCF too the premise of the book and the author himself when he was being denigrated. Well, someone needed to, right?

I realize there are some points that have been made con-Fudge that need to be considered for sure. But if a person can destroy or shed enough doubt on the character of an author then that might could erode confidence in the author's "work" which has to be taken into consideration as a motive by those who seek to trash Tom Fudge.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That's why there are so many views of certain points in History. Take the Civil War, there is lots of information concerning that part of time, but one must take in all the information to come up with a balance view. Agenda builders don't want a balanced view because they hold an agenda, and if their agenda gets defeated they would have to recant their flawed position.



My point exactly Brother Daniel, so you have Thomas Fudge getting shown the door at Hazelwood and having an attitude that shows as he writes his book. It was obvious and that was sad to see. So what you have left is Thomas Fudge's bias view of our history.



A few men, have you talked to all these men other than Elder Epley?
It’s called research Brother Daniel. I'm not going to bank on a few people on an Internet forum to compile history. Yes some things may be close or even correct. Still the good students makes real sure he covers his bases by finding the BEST primary sources. One witness does not give you all the facts.




When studying the Roman Empire you have quite a few different sources to choose from, and even now we are gathering new information. Our view of history is ever changing as new finds and new research is being given.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Come Ben, you can argue about TF conclusions, but it is really hard to argue the facts. He did a superb job with his research his book is a great read for those of us who were raised in the south and shielded from the facts of our own history.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Fudge's complaint about the non-cooperation of Hazelwood was not as an excuse for not having enough sources ... he obviously did ... he sought to be as objective and comprehensive as possible considering he did have a thesis he sought to prove ...

he simply asked for transparency and access to archives ... and was rejected.

The reluctance of the org to cooperate underscores their attitude towards TRUTH ....

I never said that it was Brother Daniel, please that not what I said.
I said that Fudge's problem began when J.L. Hall showed Thomas Fudge the door. Fudge's writings start to take on that attitude. It's very easy to notice.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Come Ben, you can argue about TF conclusions, but it is really hard to argue the facts. He did a superb job with his research his book is a great read for those of us who were raised in the south and shielded from the facts of our own history.

Brother Daniel I really think you want me to accept that a one source is the most reliable. That's hysterical and not historical.

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[SDG]

Benny ... the attitude you read into Fudge's indictment of Hall is just that your opinion ... even if it's true ... he has a legitimate beef and right to say that the org did it's best not to be transparent with their historical documents.

Most of the facts are not disputed in this book ... even by Hall and Norris ... his conclusions based on the data are questioned , as stated by Crakjak.

For someone who claims they want a balanced view ... I'm skeptical.

This book is unprecedented in presenting a little known perspective ... the majority view had been published, propagandized and accepted for decades ...

It is up to the reader to glean what is truth and what is the historian's bias -- from many sources and perspectives.

[SDG]

Benny .... do you think the minority historical view of preterists and their role within the Oneness movement has been told accurately and fairly? Ever ask yourself why not? Imagine if you even tried to tell that story.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Prior to the UPCI debating resolution 6 on the floor of General Conference, in Columbus, Ohio, in the fall of 2006 .... Kenneth Philips, Jonathon Suber and Wendell Hutchins began a partnership that resulted in the formation of a loose ministerial fellowship called the New Church Order. The NCO website was launched and called for an new era of post-denominationalism and end to exclusionary fellowship & organizational politics. The NCO also has be been advocating technology as an important tool to evangelizing the entire world.

By the winter’s end, they claimed close to 1000 members and had launched an internet-based television and webcasting venture called Acts 29 TV. The NCO has also effectively used email and blogs to communicate their agenda and group interactions.

Ministers nation-wide, from various organizations, and independents, have joined the NCO, including many UPCI ministers.
Some UPCI ministers who have not been shy about their cooperation w/ the NCO are Randy Hollis, Kentucky … Joe Hunt, CA … Anthony Langston, New Jersey … and Glenn Purvis, Georgia.

There are unconfirmed rumors that the NCO is aggressively recruiting present and former UPCI ministers behind the scenes. While some supporters of the NCO see the fellowship is providing a voice and viable option.

Meanwhile, the leaders of NCO have also joined an existing, more established, ministerial fellowship called the AWCF, a fellowship claiming a constituency of more than 180 organizations, 20,000 minister and 5 million believers world-wide.

In the fall of 2006, the AWCF and their presiding Bishop S. Smith welcomed Bishop Phillips, Suber, Hutchin and Tekelemarian with much fan-fare. These new members admission was splattered on the homepage of AWCF’s website, www.awcf.org.

One of the NCO leaders told this poster that the reason for his decision to join the AWCF was because he felt that ministerial accountability is vital.

Since then, there has been increased cooperation between Bishop Smith’s AWCF and the triumvirate leading the NCO. Smith has spoken at NCO events and the NCO leaders began speaking on the AWCF circuit. The AWCF’s bishop also partially funded Suber’s recent missions trip to Africa.

In May of this year, Suber, Huthins and Philips were featured keynote speakers at the AWCF’s 2007 World Congress. The 36th Annual World Congress was held May 2nd, 3rd & 4th, 2007 at the Centre in Evansville, Indiana USA .

Bishop Phillips stirring message to the AWCF Congress on Thursday, May 3rd, has apparently made him the new darling of the AWCF.

I encourage you to listen to the last ten minutes of his message here.
http://www.awcf.org/media-archives.html

During the last 10 minutes of Phillips message to the AWCF members he passionately and convincingly made arguments about how technology mediums are a God-ordained gift to this generation, as they were to the 1st century church, to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world.

He also said that in prayer God had revealed to him that he should join the AWCF. Phillips also stated that he had been waiting for over 30 years for a fellowship like the AWCF that was willing to embrace technology and is evangelism-focused.

He also publicly announced his submission to the authority of the AWCF’s presiding bishop and its other bishops. He asked them to instruct him as to what they wanted him to do.

[I will transcribe some of his remarks from Phillip's message later.]

Hutchins and Suber followed on Thursday. Suber, interestingly entitled his revival-style message “Welcome to the Revolution’, a popular mantra within the NCO. You can access both of their messages to the AWCF Congress here -
http://www.awcf.org/media-archives.html

Enter the summer of 2007.
[ *** we are only weeks away from the UPCI’s General Conference in which the “technology issue” is on everyone’s mind]

Recently, both the NCO and AWCF have published an article on their websites written by a UPCI minister called Randy Hollis entitled “The Emancipation of Issaac”.

You can read the article here. There is a thread discussing it's contents here.

The Hollis article is critical of what he describes as a “falling away” within the Apostolic movement which he attributes to the legalism of ultraconservative ministers. Hollis, on his website, randyhollis.com, has brought attention to the TV debate and his reservations about the present direction of his organization. He asserts that his fellowship's present decision making process is "rules-based' and not "principle-based".

Here are the questions I have:

1. Have the NCO and AWCF been opportunistic in taking advantage of the internal struggles within the UPCI. Are they “raiding” the org or are they providing a “safety net” for disgruntled moderate to liberal ministers within the org?

2. Why are these organizations posting such an article on their websites? Are they using the current state of discontent within the UPC to their favor? Isn't this a very aggressive move on their part?

3. Does anyone have information to corroborate the unconfirmed rumors that the NCO and or the AWCF are being aggressive in recruiting or in offering a safety net?

4. What if Bishop Phillips became the presiding Bishop of not only the NCO but the AWCF? What effects would this have on the Apostolic Oneness movement as a whole?

bump for our Weekend Warriors ...

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What did Thomas Fudge become the leader of the liberals?

Let me shed some light on the illustrious Fudge Book.

If anyone took the time to read it carefully you will find that Thomas Fudge starts out pretty decent in his behavior of the One God people. But as you read you can see how his writing changes after J.L. Hall gives him the boot out of the library in Hazelwood. Sorry, disgruntled writers who have attitudes and agendas don't make for good historians. Christianity without the Holy Ghost that is what the book should be titled.
Thank you for your time.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Elder Beni...

Good morning, sir. A few comments if I may...

As I have done 'a bit' of writing, I can say with confidence that all write with a certain agenda and attitude...we have something to say and we are trying to make folks understand it.

Bias cannot be helped, IMO...

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Interesting observation -- one I haven't heard before.

Disgruntled or not doesn't change the factual and narrative history. I want to know as much about that as possible. I have no fear of knowing the truth -- whatever it is.

Good heavens! I about fell over when I read that Charles Parham was accused of apparent homosexual misconduct, but that doesn't lessen or diminish the reality of the Holy Ghost or how God moved so powerfully in Topeka or Azusa St either.

So even IF IF IF Fudge had a bone to pick, the history and information provided is valid and important.

I agree with this post, and this is why I am now reading the book.

After almost 56 years of being in and around the Apostolic Church, I know what I believe and do not fear in reading this I will alter my belief.

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why folks are so up in arms about this...