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  #221  
Old 07-03-2007, 11:33 PM
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tv1a tv1a is offline
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I would sit back if it weren't for the fact I've seen about 50 people the past year whose walk with God was severely impacted by the spirit of legalism. It wasn't a spirit of personal convictions, but a spirit of legalism that killed the momentum everytime God was adding to the church. As I mention in another post, we need more Pauls to stand up to today's Peters and say legalism has got to stop.

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Originally Posted by RevDWW View Post
Now it makes sense. Sometimes it's best to just live in your "liberty" without trying to justify yourself or prove someone else wrong.
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Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado

Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard

Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
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  #222  
Old 07-03-2007, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RevDWW View Post
Judge not lest ye be judged - Jesus Christ

It seems that many a Liberal who eschews a Conservative stance as judgemental often becomes judgemental is trying to belittle it.

Kind of hypercritical when demanding tolerance but not being tolerant of views that are different then yours.

Ah, but I am tolerant of views other than my own. I think con and ultra con Pentecostals have every right in the world to be wrong and they are!

I don't try to change my conservative Pentecostal friends and relatives. If any change happens it would be from open discussion and something they decided themselves.

I have discourse outside of this forum with several ultra cons and cons on here and they will atest that I do not try to change them.

Would I like for all of old time Pentecost to see the ditch they are in with the legalism? Absolutely! When they don't does it mean I don't tolerate them? Absolutely not!

I celebrate the many things we have in common. We share the wonderous work of Calvary that allowed human beings to have the great gulf between us and God bridged and relationship with our creator restored.

We share a fallen nature that Christ was the perfect sacrifice for and we live transformed lives through the work of the Cross and the power of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

We strive to see the fruit of the Spirit in our lives and celebrate the gifts of the Spirit and the five fold ministry the Bible speaks of being given us for our betterment.

We also share the hope of Glory. The knowledge that some day we will step from this earthly realm out from the consraints of time and humanity to live for eternity with the Lord in Glory.

Those are some of the wonderful things that we can celebrate together while tolerating the differences we have.
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  #223  
Old 07-03-2007, 11:44 PM
Brother Price Brother Price is offline
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tv1a, who are you? I mean, who are you really? Better yet, here is a little something I wrote a while back on standards you will want to refute, but could never do so, unless you have a grand dislike for the Word.

Holiness Standards: The Commandment For The Believer's Life
By: William Michael Price

Grace and peace be unto you in the name our God and Father, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The issue of standards within the Church is one that causes much division and I have come to believe are a judge of the walk of an individual in Christ. Standards of holiness are things by which we can judge a person’s walk in the Lord, because that which is within an individual will manifest in the life of an individual. You cannot say is living holy, and then that same person goes and lives as the world does. That is not true holiness, and despite what modern paganism proclaims, you cannot have holiness without standards.

Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1Peter 1:13-16)

Here, the Apostle Peter gives us the command, by the Holy Ghost, to walk in holiness in all manner of conversation. The Amplified Bible says we are to be holy in all your conduct and manner of living. The NKJV uses the word conduct. In every way we conduct ourselves, we are to be holy. Some would not receive this, because of the fact that Peter also calls us out from the lusts of our former selves, the world, and the pagan religions thereof. This means we are being called into a walk of holiness, and not anything as the world or the religions born in the world walks. And, this walk involves every area of life. As such, the scriptures give us many standards that we must apply in our lives today.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2Corinthians 6:14-18)

The only way we are considered by God to be His children is to be separated from this world, and sanctified unto the Lord. Many people speak of love being how we are known, but love is only part of holiness. Holiness is inward in attitude and emotion, as well as outward in dress and what we partake in. We are to not have any fellowship with this world’s ways, the ways of the pagan religions of the world, or be partakers of the sins thereof. We must be holy if we are to be His children, and Him to be our Father. And, as a believer in Jesus Christ, I desire to walk as holy and righteous as I can. If there be any standards in the Word of God, and there are, I need work on aligning myself up with them, so that my light before Jesus and the world would shine bright, and show the way to salvation.

Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. (1Corinthians 11:14-15)

Here is one of the hottest debated standards in the Church; the issue of a woman cutting her hair. Some preachers label women who cut their hair as bobbed haired women. Some have declared that a woman can cut her hair, so long as she wears a veil on her head. Some have allowed anything and everything in the area of hair. Women who cut their hair, as well as men who allow their hair to grow long, both are shamed before the Lord, and are in fact not holy, regardless of what any man says. If any woman, who is born again, cuts her hair, she is in direct rebellion against the scriptures, and removes from her the sign of glory the Lord intended for her life as a witness. Verse 6 of the same chapter above says, “For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.” The hair on a woman is given as a covering by God, and if any woman cuts her hair, she is shamed before God, the angels, and the brethren. This is a standard within the Church, and shows the holiness of subjection in a woman and man. If a man has long hair, he is shamed and not holy. If a woman cuts her hair, she is shamed and not holy.

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. (Deuteronomy 22:5)

Another area of standards is in dress. A woman has no business, if she be born again; wearing any clothing that pertains to a man. This includes pants, men’s shirts, etc. Pants were invented in the Bible as men’s apparel. Many though, use the claim that because this is found only in the Old Testament, that it only applies under the Law, and not to believers today. Some have even attempted to make excuse that because pants are made ‘for women’ that they are therefore in violation of the scriptures. The scriptures declare that the Lord does not change, and if He considered such to be an abomination in the Old Testament, He does the same today. Women wearing men’s clothing are an abomination in the eyes of God, and are not in holiness. They have sided with the same individuals who come against the separation of the sexes. God has a separation for a reason, and has declared such through His Word. Any man who preaches that women wearing men’s clothing is acceptable is lying against the Word, deceiving souls into sin, and also shows disdain for Bible truth.

I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array. But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. (1Timothy 2:8-10)

The issue of jewelry is one that also shows the holiness of a person. Many men and women today wear earrings in the church, and claim they are fashionable. They will wear rings on fingers, and piercings on their body. They will have necklaces on made of gold, platinum, and diamonds. They wear thousand dollar suits and dresses, and lofty shoes. They dress in any fashion but modest. They have not holiness in their heart, and this is proven their immodest outer appearance. They choose to dress in the fashions of this world, and not in godliness and holiness. I like new suits myself, but am not willing to spend thousands on such dress. And, I certainly will not ever wear the sign of a slave to this present world, which is an earring. No believer should wear jewelry or expensive clothing, but should be dressed in modest clothing, with holiness. Just as one should have a modest spirit before the Lord, one’s clothing should also be modest.

I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me. (Psalms 101:3)

The world’s media and entertainment is one that promotes sin and transgression, from movies to the evening news, sins and iniquity are all promoted. The question arises as to why any believer would dare welcome such into their hearts and spirits. That is why no Apostolic would watch TV or pay money to watch a movie. That is what holiness does, in that it causes a person to look with discernment and pity on such things. If a soul is holy, then that person will not have a desire to watch TV or movies. Someone whose walk is dedicated unto a sanctified walk will keep themselves from such things as the TV brings.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9)

The last point I want to bring out in relation to holiness and standards is of whether this is a salvation issue. Some have said that standards are not a salvation issue. That is a lie from Hell itself, disguised to make a believer lower their spiritual guard. Standards are a salvation issue, because they are a matter of holiness. If a soul is holy, they are going to have standards. If a soul is righteous, they will have boundaries. Proverbs 22:28 declares in wisdom and truth, “Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set.” Holiness standards are landmarks that have demonstrated the walk of saints in the past, and continue to do so in these present days. So, they are salvational, and if any man preaches against holiness standards, not only is he cursed, but he is lost as well.

The question now arises, who do you live for, and what standards do you have. Are you in alignment with scripture? Will you allow the Holy Ghost to help you align your life to the scriptures today? You are not promised tomorrow, so get right today.
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  #224  
Old 07-04-2007, 01:34 AM
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tv1a tv1a is offline
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Your post reminds me of saying I once heard. There are people who talk a lot but have little to say.

Your cheap shot from the nose bleed section is hardly worth mentioning except for the fact you insinuated I have a disdain for the God's Word because I disagree with your universal interpretation of scripture. Not only can I refute your rhetoric, I can do it with the love for the Word of God.

Without going over each point ad naseum again, the gist of your article is to pontificate the Gospel According to Bill. All other interpretations are wrong.

To summarize your post, you are suggesting your personal convictions should be universally accepted. Just because you throw scripture around doesn't mean your code is the ONLY code. I agree women shouldn't be wearing clothes that make her look manly. I may disagree with your subjective definition of what is manly clothing and what isn't manly clothing. That doesn't make your definition any better than my definition.

You have proven again you do not comprehend my point. I'm not against boundaries. I disagree subjective boundaries being displayed as Gospel when it is only a man made opinion of how a principle shoule be enforced.

To show how little you grasp the holiness issue, you bring up the scripture which admonishes us not to remove the ancient landmarks. The passage isn't talking about a dress code, nor was it intended to be a rallying cry that clothes line preachers could hang their doctrine on. The passage is one of 30 principles dealing with business ethics. Those principles go well into the next chapter. A great case study for Christians who want to run a Christ-centered business. It takes a liberal translation and a blind leap of faith to believe that scripture deals changing a man made dress code.

You prove my point about legalists. It's all about their way or the highway. I find more substance in a Joel Osteen coloring book than I do in your post.

Next time, try understanding the issue before posting. If you can't do that. At least try to find a website that can refute it for you. Cut and paste their response. At least we'll be discussing the same issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Price View Post
tv1a, who are you? I mean, who are you really? Better yet, here is a little something I wrote a while back on standards you will want to refute, but could never do so, unless you have a grand dislike for the Word.
__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson

Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado

Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard

Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
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  #225  
Old 07-04-2007, 07:31 AM
Brother Price Brother Price is offline
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tv1a, I find your disdain and lack of ability to see the truth of scripture disturbing. I mean, suddenly obedience to the scriptures is no longer to be universal. We can pick and choose which scriptures we are believers choose to follow, just so long as we do not consider such beliefs as affecting the salvation of an individual.

HOGWASH!

We are saved by grace through faith. Because of His grace, His favor, we should continue to walk in all the precepts set down in His word, not just the ones we have a conviction on. If the Bible says that something is wrong, then this does not change. Regardless of whether we have a conviction on it or not. Because He saves us by His grace, we should live according to His Word.

And, with respect, I find more substance in a new born believer who is reading the Word than those who would come down and make standards of holiness as found in the Bible optional, "only if you have a conviction about it."

Once again, HOGWASH!

You think this is legalism. It is not. You think that following the Bible is legalism. You would rather see someone's life fly in the wind, and let them go as they feel like. This is Joel Osteen type of theology. To make obedience to the Word optional makes the Word no longer of God but simply an instruction manual that can be cast aside as we see fit.

Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. This is not an option. Being holy is not about what one's convictions are, but in obedience to the Word.

Now, you have shown disdain for the scriptures. You make the Word and option, not a commandment. But, when all is said and done, the foundations of the Word are set in stone and no man can say they are optional, or as they have a conviction on.
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  #226  
Old 07-04-2007, 07:39 AM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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ROFL!!

Pants were worn by men in the Bible now!! That's news to me!!!

I should trade my KJV in for a Bill Price special!
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  #227  
Old 07-04-2007, 07:46 AM
Rico Rico is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Price View Post
tv1a, I find your disdain and lack of ability to see the truth of scripture disturbing. I mean, suddenly obedience to the scriptures is no longer to be universal. We can pick and choose which scriptures we are believers choose to follow, just so long as we do not consider such beliefs as affecting the salvation of an individual.

HOGWASH!

We are saved by grace through faith. Because of His grace, His favor, we should continue to walk in all the precepts set down in His word, not just the ones we have a conviction on. If the Bible says that something is wrong, then this does not change. Regardless of whether we have a conviction on it or not. Because He saves us by His grace, we should live according to His Word.

And, with respect, I find more substance in a new born believer who is reading the Word than those who would come down and make standards of holiness as found in the Bible optional, "only if you have a conviction about it."

Once again, HOGWASH!

You think this is legalism. It is not. You think that following the Bible is legalism. You would rather see someone's life fly in the wind, and let them go as they feel like. This is Joel Osteen type of theology. To make obedience to the Word optional makes the Word no longer of God but simply an instruction manual that can be cast aside as we see fit.

Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. This is not an option. Being holy is not about what one's convictions are, but in obedience to the Word.

Now, you have shown disdain for the scriptures. You make the Word and option, not a commandment. But, when all is said and done, the foundations of the Word are set in stone and no man can say they are optional, or as they have a conviction on.

You just don't get it, do you?
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  #228  
Old 07-04-2007, 07:53 AM
Barb Barb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Price View Post
tv1a, I find your disdain and lack of ability to see the truth of scripture disturbing. I mean, suddenly obedience to the scriptures is no longer to be universal. We can pick and choose which scriptures we are believers choose to follow, just so long as we do not consider such beliefs as affecting the salvation of an individual.

HOGWASH!

We are saved by grace through faith. Because of His grace, His favor, we should continue to walk in all the precepts set down in His word, not just the ones we have a conviction on. If the Bible says that something is wrong, then this does not change. Regardless of whether we have a conviction on it or not. Because He saves us by His grace, we should live according to His Word.

And, with respect, I find more substance in a new born believer who is reading the Word than those who would come down and make standards of holiness as found in the Bible optional, "only if you have a conviction about it."

Once again, HOGWASH!

You think this is legalism. It is not. You think that following the Bible is legalism. You would rather see someone's life fly in the wind, and let them go as they feel like. This is Joel Osteen type of theology. To make obedience to the Word optional makes the Word no longer of God but simply an instruction manual that can be cast aside as we see fit.

Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. This is not an option. Being holy is not about what one's convictions are, but in obedience to the Word.

Now, you have shown disdain for the scriptures. You make the Word and option, not a commandment. But, when all is said and done, the foundations of the Word are set in stone and no man can say they are optional, or as they have a conviction on.
I suppose we each read things differently into posts, but I did not detect a disdain for Scripture in tv's post...
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  #229  
Old 07-04-2007, 08:01 AM
Rico Rico is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barb View Post
I suppose we each read things differently into posts, but I did not detect a disdain for Scripture in tv's post...
Sister, it's just another "I'm holier than you are and understand God's Word better than you" post.
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  #230  
Old 07-04-2007, 09:23 AM
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CC1 CC1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barb View Post
I suppose we each read things differently into posts, but I did not detect a disdain for Scripture in tv's post...
I think he is mistaking disdain for his skewing and misuse of scripture as a disdain for scripture itself.
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