What's your view on Hell?

[1 God]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus can't be true because . . .
after death no one is conscious until the resurection of the just and then the resurection and annihilation of the unjust in Revelation 20.

People are not lying around dead looking at each other and requesting upgraded accommodations. That is totally fictitious.

Not to mention that Abraham can't hear and answer prayer.

Why are these deceased saints speaking from death and being spoken to?.....
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them,.....

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by 1 God

Why are these deceased saints speaking from death and being spoken to?.....
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them,.....

Until the resurection. Only Jesus has immortality

1 Timothy 6:14-16
King James Version
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So, the passage you posted must be a symbolic vision.

Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden before they could eat of the tree of life and gain immortality.

The just will be resurrected in Rev 20 to eat from the tree of life and gain immortality in Rev 21.

[1 God]

What was the symbolic vision about that I posted in the verses.?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Parables as used in ancient times are stories that can be made up but are true to life, i.e. they can potentially happen. Parables are all over the Bible.

What is this:

Judges 9:7-15 KJV
And when they told it to Jotham, he went and stood in the top of mount Gerizim, and lifted up his voice, and cried, and said unto them, Hearken unto me, ye men of Shechem, that God may hearken unto you. [8] The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. [9] But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? [10] And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. [11] But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? [12] Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. [13] And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? [14] Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. [15] And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.

[Esaias]

Here's an interesting article delving into the genre of the story in question:

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/arc...an-and-Lazarus

[coksiw]

Mat 10:28 NKJV - 28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

According to Jesus, one can kill the body but not the soul. If you are killed you are dead, and you in fact were mortal. However, that person didn't kill you soul.

So the label "immortal" is not applicable to a soul. It is only applicable to a soul in a body, or a living soul. If your body was killed but not the soul, you are dead.

Those of us that believe in the soul remaining after the body is dead do not use the term "immortal soul" because it doesn't apply.

For the Greeks, there was not resurrection, and the internal spirit leaving the body at death was the destination, where you were rewarded (funny fact, as long as you were remembered). They did not see it as a curse of wrongdoing. For us, the destination is eternal life, and that's our final reward. No, our doctrine is not equal to the Greeks or corrupted by the Greeks.

Another example is that in the OT, you don't see a lot of conceptual separation between the flesh and the Spirit battling internally, and you making a decision what to follow. The NT, especially Paul's letters, are full of that depiction of the clash between good and evil within us. Gnostic people also believed in a similar idea, of the physical world drawing you to evil, and your spirit drawing you to good and overcoming by knowledge. Are Paul's teachings then corrupt with paganism because it has material vs immaterial-like concepts within us like the Gnostics? Where did Paul get all these ideas of the flesh and the Spirit to describe the battle within us? It came from God. Now to be precise, Paul's "flesh" is different than Gnostics' material side, and Paul's spiritual aspect is way different than the Gnostic's immaterial side.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What is this:

Judges 9:7-15 KJV
And when they told it to Jotham, he went and stood in the top of mount Gerizim, and lifted up his voice, and cried, and said unto them, Hearken unto me, ye men of Shechem, that God may hearken unto you. [8] The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. [9] But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? [10] And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. [11] But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? [12] Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. [13] And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? [14] Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. [15] And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.

It looks like a fable to me. There is another one here: 2 Kings 14:9-10;

I think those are the only two ones in the entire Bible, BTW.

[1 God]

In verse 10 the dead cried...
In verse 11 it was said unto them(the dead)...
What else does this mean other than what it says?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Here's an interesting article delving into the genre of the story in question:

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/arc...an-and-Lazarus

The article argument is almost convincing. Basically the parable, which would be a "reality" for the Pharisees but not for Jesus, is rather a sarcasm.

That could be an appealing explanation, however, when I'm presented with verses like Matt 10:28, or Luke 23:43, or other verses from Paul I posted before, I would have to do a lot of acrobatic hermeneutics to explain them from the soul-sleep point of view.

However, I can explain the apparent contradiction between OT and NT in this topic by attributing it to a greater understanding of the afterlife in the NT, which is probably the result of deeper diving into the Scripture during the captivity and the second temple period. Probably the answer to this question: if there is resurrection, how are our memories, consciousness, will, self, etc... preserved? there must be then something that remains after death.

Basically, "soul" in the NT, comparing with the OT, has a new dimension, or an added meaning to it: what remains after you die.

Words being used in a different dimension in the NT, adding to their semantic range, is not a new thing. Look at the word "flesh", and how it is used in the OT, and how Paul uses it in the NT to mean sometimes sinful nature.

[Amanah]

Both the old and new testament are inspired by God. God breathed into man and man became a living being denied immortality by not having access to the tree of life due to sin.

The blessed hope of the gospel is resurrection to eternal life. The tree of life at the end of Revelation.

The wages of sin is death. The unjust will be resurrected to face judgment and the second death, annihilation.