Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Really Prax? Did you read them all?

One: From Revelation

6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Two: Jesus, from Luke (but there is more than one example of Jesus saying this)

But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

Three: From Daniel

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Four: From Mark

19S o then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

There are many more of these examples. Specific, concise, no ABC "helpful" $10 interpretation of a two-bit profit needed.

Separate entities, in separate physical locations, at the same point in time. That took 5 minutes. Do you need some more examples? Innocently wondering.

And Prax says, well duh, God can be as many different entities in as many different places at one time that he wants... I'm just saying that if you are going to attack oneness, then showing two separate entities is not enough. Showing Jesus is a man is not enough. You have to show that there is some property related to being both man and God that cannot be answered with that view.

I think I've struck gold with asking the question of whether Jesus should be worshipped. The initial answer is yes but if you pry they will say men should not be worshipped and that Jesus is a man (thus implying Jesus should not be worshipped). This puts them in a bit of pickle because they must say Jesus should be worshipped but also that Jesus should not be worshipped. I've not came across anyone proposing a good solution to that yet.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by jfrog

And Prax says, well duh, God can be as many different entities in as many different places at one time that he wants... I'm just saying that if you are going to attack oneness, then showing two separate entities is not enough. Showing Jesus is a man is not enough. You have to show that there is some property related to being both man and God that cannot be answered with that view.

I think I've struck gold with asking the question of whether Jesus should be worshipped. The initial answer is yes but if you pry they will say men should not be worshipped and that Jesus is a man (thus implying Jesus should not be worshipped). This puts them in a bit of pickle because they must say Jesus should be worshipped but also that Jesus should not be worshipped. I've not came across anyone proposing a good solution to that yet.

I am just contented that I do not have to "A" - "B" - "C" through the explanation of who Jesus was and what he was sent to do.

Was Jesus worshipped? In the "queen" James version he was, in the literal translation he wasn't. These people like to point to passages like Matt 28:9

QJV: And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

OH look see Jesus was worshipped - our book is infallible and He's God!

Literal: and as they were going to tell to his disciples, then lo, Jesus met them, saying, `Hail!' and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did bow to him.

Bowing is not worship. Next.


Fun for the day: Adding "with the evidence of speaking in tongues" to every single sentence posted (since that's not in there either)

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I am just contented that I do not have to "A" - "B" - "C" through the explanation of who Jesus was and what he was sent to do.

Was Jesus worshipped? In the "queen" James version he was, in the literal translation he wasn't. These people like to point to passages like Matt 28:9

QJV: And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

OH look see Jesus was worshipped - our book is infallible and He's God!

Literal: and as they were going to tell to his disciples, then lo, Jesus met them, saying, `Hail!' and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did bow to him.

Bowing is not worship. Next.


Fun for the day: Adding "with the evidence of speaking in tongues" to every single sentence posted (since that's not in there either)

I am wondering your thoughts on these women who prostrated themselves before the man they recognize as Jesus Christ who they had also seen nailed to a cross, who also died and was wrapped and laid in a tomb.

What exactly would their mindset be at this phenomenon standing before their very eyes saying, "All Hail= be of good cheer/rejoice"?

Also, these are the Bible versions in Matthew 28:9 which say "worshipped":

KJ21
ASV
AMP
CEB
CEV
ERV
ESV
ESVUK
EXB
GNV
GW
GNT
HCSB
Phillips
JUB
AKJV
LEB
TLB
MSG
NOG
NASB
NCV
NET
NIRV
NIV
NKJV
NLV
NLT
NRSVA
NRSVACE
NRSVCE
RSV
RSVCE
VOICE
WEB
WYC

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I am wondering your thoughts on these women who prostrated themselves before the man they recognize as Jesus Christ who they had also seen nailed to a cross, who also died and was wrapped and laid in a tomb.

What exactly would their mindset be at this phenomenon standing before their very eyes saying, "All Hail= be of good cheer/rejoice"?

Also, these are the Bible versions in Matthew 28:9 which say "worshipped":

KJ21
ASV
AMP
CEB
CEV
ERV
ESV
ESVUK
EXB
GNV
GW
GNT
HCSB
Phillips
JUB
AKJV
LEB
TLB
MSG
NOG
NASB
NCV
NET
NIRV
NIV
NKJV
NLV
NLT
NRSVA
NRSVACE
NRSVCE
RSV
RSVCE
VOICE
WEB
WYC

Are you referring to this story from John 20?

15 Jesus saith to her, `Woman, why dost thou weep? whom dost thou seek;' she, supposing that he is the gardener, saith to him, `Sir, if thou didst carry him away, tell me where thou didst lay him, and I will take him away;'

16 Jesus saith to her, `Mary!' having turned, she saith to him, `Rabbouni;' that is to say, `Teacher.'

17 Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.'

Are you using this story to prove Jesus is God? I'll put that one in the long, growing list of references that prove my point.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Are you referring to this story from John 20?

15 Jesus saith to her, `Woman, why dost thou weep? whom dost thou seek;' she, supposing that he is the gardener, saith to him, `Sir, if thou didst carry him away, tell me where thou didst lay him, and I will take him away;'

16 Jesus saith to her, `Mary!' having turned, she saith to him, `Rabbouni;' that is to say, `Teacher.'

17 Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.'

Are you using this story to prove Jesus is God? I'll put that one in the long, growing list of references that prove my point.

Did you notice in that same chapter, specifically verse 28, that Thomas identifies Jesus Christ as "My Lord and/even My God"?

You do realize that when Jesus addresses Himself in this way, He is identifying who He is? He instructs Mary to go and "tell the brethren" that he is ascending to His Father, your Father, His God and your God."

What would the brethren understand here?...That the only words they have before them are:

"I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." Isaiah 42:8

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11

"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 4:24

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

More importantly, when Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon on all flesh, Joel 2:28, that same Spirit is identified as the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:4. And the Holy Ghost of the NT is that Spirit of God in the OT.

Would the Jews, at any time, change their belief in God? No, they never would.

"Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad"

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut 6:4)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Did you notice in that same chapter, specifically verse 28, that Thomas identifies Jesus Christ as "My Lord and/even My God"?

You do realize that when Jesus addresses Himself in this way, He is identifying who He is? He instructs Mary to go and "tell the brethren" that he is ascending to His Father, your Father, His God and your God."

What would the brethren understand here?...That the only words they have before them are:

"I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." Isaiah 42:8

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11

"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 4:24

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

More importantly, when Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon on all flesh, Joel 2:28, that same Spirit is identified as the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:4. And the Holy Ghost of the NT is that Spirit of God in the OT.

Would the Jews, at any time, change their belief in God? No, they never would.

"Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad"

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut 6:4)

Ummmm if your trying to convince walks in Islam that there is only 1 God I'm pretty sure he already believes that.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Ummmm if your trying to convince walks in Islam that there is only 1 God I'm pretty sure he already believes that.

That wasn't the point of my post.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Ummmm if your trying to convince walks in Islam that there is only 1 God I'm pretty sure he already believes that.

Please note "who" is speaking in Hebrews 1. God is saying:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

When God speaks, he speaks to the source. In Genesis 1, He speaks to the elements, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself..."

The ground is the plant source.

When He speaks to and of Himself, He is speaking to the source. That is why He can emphatically say unto the "son", "They throne, O God..."

He is God, the father and the son.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is presented here as the image of God, the invisible. "Image" in Greek, Eikon always assumes a prototype (the original form from which it is drawn), not merely a thing it resembles (e.g., the reflection of the sun in the water is an eikon). Paul was telling the Colossians here that Jesus Christ has a "prototype", God the Father who is invisible. - Spiros Zodhiates

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:7

The phrase in verse seven, "took upon him the form of a servant," should be understood as "having taken..." which denotes that He became as a servant in man's likeness at His incarnation, and that he did not possess that form before that time. His purpose in coming as a man in order to die for the sins of mankind. The key idea to consider is that Christ was and is who He claimed to be - God. - Spiros Zodhiates

[Sean]

Guys, I think that they are seeing that we are saying (regarding a dual nature concept).Is we are saying that Jesus had a human nature and a divine nature(that would make his divine nature distinct from the Fathers divine nature). That would make 2 dieties somehow. Then we blend it into one deity. (Father and Son are one)

That seems to be the concept we are portraying.


If we took the divine nature concept off the table(because its not biblical), then we can say Jesus was truly human and the other point of view could see things more clearly.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Sean

Guys, I think that they are seeing that we are saying (regarding a dual nature concept).Is we are saying that Jesus had a human nature and a divine nature(that would make his divine nature distinct from the Fathers divine nature). That would make 2 dieties somehow. Then we blend it into one deity. (Father and Son are one)

That seems to be the concept we are portraying.


If we took the divine nature concept off the table(because its not biblical), then we can say Jesus was truly human and the other point of view could see things more clearly.

It would be more correct to say that we can make a distinction between the two natures of Jesus, divine and human, but that we cannot make a separation.

By way of example, this is how I have always understood it, from II Cor 4:16 - "Though our outward man perish yet the inward man is renewed day by day."

Paul is making a distinction of body and spirit, but not a separation.

And, BTW, this example is not the same as the Nestorian view in which they term "son" dealing with the humanity and ignoring the deity.

You cannot separate the two, especially after reading Isaiah 9:6.