The poor in America

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

The way I understand this thread, we are dealing with political things. The churches are taking the "brunt" or burden as you would put it. That is the Catholics and other orthodox churches as well as baptists are far outdoing most pentecostal denominations in my opinion. But its not about how much you do, but the fact that you do what you can.

On a politicial level we need to understand what class is supporting what so that the others can be brought into the picture. Every class needs to help the poor in some way. Thats not happening though on a large scale or proportionally to what each one has in their pocket.

This is one of the things I've struggled with regarding tithing. IF I can afford to tithe but nothing else, I have little to "give" to the poor. So becomes my opportunity for volunteer service, but is that the only thing required of us? Money is always what these people cry out for, because thats the only language of love they really know.

To them, people are only giving them food because they want something from them; in the church's case, their soul, their drugs, their life.

Only those who get sick of living the way they are will respond to this.

Then it appears I'm the one who is late here and just now realizing you and I have been talking past each other.

I wasn't seeing a political discussion here at all -- not until it was interjected. And even then, I was more concerned with going after the negative and arrogant attitudes toward the poor.

Though there is a place for political discussion with this -- even if a brother and I have differing political views. Christians should find some harmony, because of the Gospel, in how they perceive poverty.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Socialite

I understand this example. But helping poverty for a drug addict is NOT giving him cash. There's other ways to meet each of the unique needs. Some are addicts, some mentally ill, some grew up without hope and are involved in crime, drugs and gangs, some are single mothers who were searching for love (5 kids, 2 abortions later), some are small families where they never had a worldview for the Corporate Ladder, are too old to start, but are working dead-end jobs and still not quite making it -- or barely making it; some are homeless because they are a lonely soul on the run.

Poverty is a symptom of brokenness. And every pandhandling bum (which is not even 5% of those who are classified as poor by American standards) that takes money, shoots up, craps on the sidewalk and pisses on himself is a picture of what you and I looked like before Grace entered our life. We were in an endless cycle of sin, hopeless, looking for fixes... Grace came to us. It wasn't a second chance, it was Grace. It was incredible love. Patient love. Not because we earned it. Not because we got it all right the first time. But it loved us even when we didn't love ourselves because we hated our own failures. It conquered it all. So... that's what I think about now when I see those "lazy leeches" sitting around. I see brokenness.

You know what most of them see when church people come? Not hope but a dollar or their next meal. Many of them don't want church because of the demands churches make on them.

That is why even 1% of success with the homeless is a winner!

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Excuse me for a minute! Just want say this thread is quite entertaining! Who needs color tv? Lol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=384Hs5TxwI8

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

You know what most of them see when church people come? Not hope but a dollar or their next meal. Many of them don't want church because of the demands churches make on them.

That is why even 1% of success with the homeless is a winner!

And our primary intent should not be to get them to church.

Love unconditional. Love because it's right. Love because it's just. Love because we were loved.

We are hose of water, soaking everyone we meet with love and Grace. Not with scheming evangelism, though always attentive to spiritual needs, and always ready to share the Gospel. But that's now why we love.

And btw, not all of them see just a dollar. That's usually all they get, if it's not people walking to the opposite side of the street (I assume you're talking about homeless? See how easy it is to lose definition of our subject). Most treasure and value a good, long conversation. There's an org in our city that serves the homeless each week. They feed them, wash their feet (yes footwashing), give them clean socks, and... their favorite part... ask them how they are doing. These guys will talk for a full hour! They feel worthwhile, dignity restored. Most wouldn't mind keeping a distance, pitching out a buck to get them out of their way.

But again, homelessness is only one part of what poverty is.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Then it appears I'm the one who is late here and just now realizing you and I have been talking past each other.

I wasn't seeing a political discussion here at all -- not until it was interjected. And even then, I was more concerned with going after the negative and arrogant attitudes toward the poor.

Though there is a place for political discussion with this -- even if a brother and I have differing political views. Christians should find some harmony, because of the Gospel, in how they perceive poverty.

You would think so. You would think all Christians see it eye to eye but many christians have been burnt so many times, that trusting anyone is as poor as they say they are is hard to do. Its not right but is the truth.

Some people open phone books and pick out churches to call asking for money.. They are only caught when they call the same church twice with a different story. Who do we believe?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Socialite

And our primary intent should not be to get them to church.

Love unconditional. Love because it's right. Love because it's just. Love because we were loved.

We are hose of water, soaking everyone we meet with love and Grace. Not with scheming evangelism, though always attentive to spiritual needs, and always ready to share the Gospel. But that's now why we love.

Actually is it not? Is it not to reach their soul? If the Lord comes tomorrow and they don't repent won't they die lost? You can't fault a Christian for wanting this. Its just they don't see it that way because they have not had grace awaken them to the condition of the soul. Its hard for us to be patient but thats really what we need to do.

Are you an advocate of feeding the homeless and not preaching at all to them or giving them any word from the Lord?

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

You would think so. You would think all Christians see it eye to eye but many christians have been burnt so many times, that trusting anyone is as poor as they say they are is hard to do. Its not right but is the truth.

Some people open phone books and pick out churches to call asking for money.. They are only caught when they call the same church twice with a different story. Who do we believe?

And we should be attentive to that. I've known I was getting a story before, and asked the guy "look, I don't believe your story, but I don't you have a need. What's going on?" Other times, I've said "no." Churches can't indiscriminately dole out money. For those in desperate need that are part of the family, we should find ways to meet their needs. But otherwise, using wisdom, seeing them the way Jesus does and earnestly wanting to do the right thing will go a long way.

As an old pastor of mine used to say with money -- "never give it out expecting anything in return." We usually want to see a responsible ROI.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Excuse me for a minute! Just want say this thread is quite entertaining! Who needs color tv? Lol!

I taught a home bible study and the big screen crowded the small living room. 2 weeks later they were evicted for non payment of rent. The rent on the teevee must have been 40 dollars a week.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Socialite

And our primary intent should not be to get them to church.

Love unconditional. Love because it's right. Love because it's just. Love because we were loved.

We are hose of water, soaking everyone we meet with love and Grace. Not with scheming evangelism, though always attentive to spiritual needs, and always ready to share the Gospel. But that's now why we love.

And btw, not all of them see just a dollar. That's usually all they get, if it's not people walking to the opposite side of the street (I assume you're talking about homeless? See how easy it is to lose definition of our subject). Most treasure and value a good, long conversation. There's an org in our city that serves the homeless each week. They feed them, wash their feet (yes footwashing), give them clean socks, and... their favorite part... ask them how they are doing. These guys will talk for a full hour! They feel worthwhile, dignity restored. Most wouldn't mind keeping a distance, pitching out a buck to get them out of their way.

But again, homelessness is only one part of what poverty is.

Homelessness is true poverty, the basest of all. Many of them have not even the basic needs met. At least with a home and a church to go to, people have support; the homeless they have them and thats it, no shelter of their own, typically no food stamps without an address, nothing but the clothes on their back.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Actually is it not? Is it not to reach their soul? If the Lord comes tomorrow and they don't repent won't they die lost? You can't fault a Christian for wanting this. Its just they don't see it that way because they have not had grace awaken them to the condition of the soul. Its hard for us to be patient but thats really what we need to do.

Are you an advocate of feeding the homeless and not preaching at all to them or giving them any word from the Lord?

I'm not an advocate of bait and switch. I'm not meeting their need to preach to them. I'm loving on them because I was loved so much. In that way, I AM presenting the Gospel. When we've gone out with the homeless, we always will offer prayer, we listen, we encourage when we can... we build relationships, even knowing many of their names. We most definitely are willing to share with them the Story of what Christ has done, but they don't have to consent to hearing the Gospel to having a need that we want to meet. They are broken, just like we were... and really, in many ways, still are until our final redemption.

Serving is what we do as a result of the Gospel. We were served, and we serve.

But again, in context of the post, this is only one aspect of poverty.