Your answer to illegal immigration.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Aquila,

I agree with you on this!

These guys are absolutely bought into the idea that Big Brother is gonna take care of them! Just give big brother all the tools to do that! Their absolute insanity is killing me! They have bought into the idea that all our nations problems are caused by the illegals! Sounds like Nazi Germany and hitlers proclaiming that all their troubles were caused by the Jews!

WOW!

Especially Jerm yn!

He is all for Obama, apparently because of the color, but against the "illegals" maybe because of their color!

Sounds like some of the others have a color problem also! Not so much a "illegal" problem!

I'm so glad you're seeing this TJJJ. I've asked questions and prompted for their honest responses... and indeed they do reveal a fascist bent similar to Hitler's Nazi Germany. It is very sobering.

It's as I've always warned... when you mix religion and politics we often create zealous political lap dogs who are more Political in their thinking than Christian.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm so glad you're seeing this TJJJ. I've asked questions and prompted for their honest responses... and indeed they do reveal a fascist bent similar to Hitler's Nazi Germany. It is very sobering.

It's as I've always warned... when you mix religion and politics we often create zealous political lap dogs who are more Political in their thinking than Christian.

ROFL!!!! IM A NAZI!!!! ROFL!!!!! You're too entertaining aquila. And talk about politcal lap dogs and buzz words. Calling people who disagree with you a Nazi. Go take a few more pages from politcal playbooks! That's got to be the oldest most unfounded insult in the book of ALL TIME. Next I'm going to be a communist. Then soon I'm goina magically morph into a terrorist. ROFL!!! You're too much!!! Please try to defend yourself. I really want another good laugh.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I'm sure drug dealers tell the IRS the same thing

My plan was not to go out and enforce those kind of things very much more. Just a little, and make a few examples of people. Then once fear sits in, make an example every now and then to keep it there and people will stop offering jobs to illegal immigrants.

Bro... that's what they're trying to do in the drug war. In spite of heavy handed government tactics drugs are worse now than ever before. If people feel they can save a couple thousand dollars by employing an illegal they will do it regardless.

Now... how do you expect to enforce some of these rules? Will you force people to register every contractor they choose to have work for them with the Government? How else will you really instill fear in your target citizenry? If I'm not being policed and I can save a couple thousand or more by employing my neighbor... who's to say I'm not going to not even ask him if he's legal and hire him? Am I bound by law to ask? If so how do I verify that I've followed the law? Do I have to register showing evidence that he's legal? You're going down a road you truly don't want to go down my friend.

No government up in your business, unless your doing something illegal, and even if you are the point isn't to find you and make you stop, the point is to frighten you of what will happen if you don't stop.

Bro... you're not getting it. I'm convinced you've become a fascist before our very eyes.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro... that's what they're trying to do in the drug war. In spite of heavy handed government tactics drugs are worse now than ever before. If people feel they can save a couple thousand dollars by employing an illegal they will do it regardless.

Now... how do you expect to enforce some of these rules? Will you force people to register every contractor they choose to have work for them with the Government? How else will you really instill fear in your target citizenry? If I'm not being policed and I can save a couple thousand or more by employing my neighbor... who's to say I'm not going to not even ask him if he's legal and hire him? Am I bound by law to ask? If so how do I verify that I've followed the law? Do I have to register showing evidence that he's legal? You're going down a road you truly don't want to go down my friend.



Bro... you're not getting it. I'm convinced you've become a fascist before our very eyes.

Nope, I suspect that in most cases, the person doing the hiring will have made someone angry. That someone will get back at them by telling of their dealings with illegal immigrants. I don't need alot of convictions, if I make the punishment steep enough. Just need enough to get peoples attention.

EDIT: To do with your question on verifying... If they have a drivers liscense or other similar I.D. then that will be enough to verify their status.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

ROFL!!!! IM A NAZI!!!! ROFL!!!!! You're too entertaining aquila. And talk about politcal lap dogs and buzz words. Calling people who disagree with you a Nazi. Go take a few more pages from politcal playbooks! That's got to be the oldest most unfounded insult in the book of ALL TIME. Next I'm going to be a communist. Then soon I'm goina magically morph into a terrorist. ROFL!!! You're too much!!! Please try to defend yourself. I really want another good laugh.

I know you're not a Nazi... however... you're very words and thought processes are similar to those employed by the fascists. You're wanting a police state to zero in on a population that you feel is deteremental to our society and eliminate them by deportation. You've already expressed that you're hopes is to instill fear through heavy handed police tactics and legal penalties.

Bro... it's not that serious of a crime. These are just workers who are here illegally. The vast majority aren't doing anything but building roofs, working on farms, and landscaping. You're talking about beefing up police, heavy handed laws to penalize Americans who are involved in private business transactions, forcing proof of citizenship at BMVs, traffic stops, schools, banks, etc. Miles and miles of security fencing....

I really wish you would take a deep breath and read what you're advocating and consider how you're sounding.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Nope, I suspect that in most cases, the person doing the hiring will have made someone angry. That someone will get back at them by telling of their dealings with illegal immigrants. I don't need alot of convictions, if I make the punishment steep enough. Just need enough to get peoples attention.

How steep?

Hypothetically...

Let's say I hired about five illegals to rebuild my roof. I would have paid $8,000, they're doing the work for $5,000. What will you do to me, the Joe American who hired them, to get the entire nation's attention and instill fear on the population?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I know you're not a Nazi... however... you're very words and thought processes are similar to those employed by the fascists. You're wanting a police state to zero in on a population that you feel is deteremental to our society and eliminate them by deportation. You've already expressed that you're hopes is to instill fear through heavy handed police tactics and legal penalties.

Bro... it's not that serious of a crime. These are just workers who are here illegally. The vast majority aren't doing anything but building roofs, working on farms, and landscaping. You're talking about beefing up police, heavy handed laws to penalize Americans who are involved in private business transactions, forcing proof of citizenship at traffic stops, schools, banks, etc.

I really wish you would take a deep breath and read what you're advocating and consider how you're sounding.

They aren't a population. They aren't even legal. If they were legal you might have an argument but they are not. It ain't like I'm wanting to make all jews illegal and get them deported? I'm just saying that those here illegally shouldn't be and something more needs done about it. There does need to be ways more can come over and work legally. But i can't understand why your acting like anybody and everybody that comes into this country illegally has the right to be here. I mean if that's the case let's invite everyone to come live here without going through any immigration or naturalization process. We'd be flooded with too many people before long and you know it. But that is what you are saying you want done.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

How steep?

Hypothetically...

Let's say I hired about five illegals to rebuild my roof. I would have paid $8,000, they're doing the work for $5,000. What will you do to me, the Joe American who hired them, to get the entire nation's attention and instill fear on the population?

A large fine, let's say $10,000 - $25,000 for each illegal you hire. Probation, with the next conviction bringing some jail time and more fines.

EDIT: maybe larger fines, would have to think it through some more, but those numbers sounded decent off the top of my head.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

They aren't a population. They aren't even legal. If they were legal you might have an argument but they are not.

Hmmm....

So if a population doesn't meet the government's definition of "legal" they aren't a population. Because they aren't legal any force necessary is acceptable I assume.

It ain't like I'm wanting to make all jews illegal and get them deported?

Interesting.... let's say that Israel suffers a massive invasion within the next five years and Jews are sent fleeing around the world and thousands come to the United States illegally? Would you round them up and send them back into the hands of the Arabs?

I'm just saying that those here illegally shouldn't be and something more needs done about it.

We all agree that something needs to be done about it. But I'm not for a police state to get it done. I say what's done is done, they're here. The amount of laws and enforcement it would take to get them would be unAmerican. Grant them citizenship, fine them, give them a first degree Misdemeanor, put them on six months probation and be done with it. Once legal labor and tax laws will apply to them in full. You've eliminated a significant number of illegal workers and broadened the tax base. You've expanded the cause of freedom and the political party that does this will have quite a nice little voting block standing behind them. You will have not divided families or sent people back home to deal with God knows what. It's a bitter pill but I see it as the best alternative when compared to your fear inducing police state.

There does need to be ways more can come over and work legally.

We agree.

But i can't understand why your acting like anybody and everybody that comes into this country illegally has the right to be here.

I don't. But I'm a realist. We're not going to be able to go after millions of illegals that are scattered across the US who are working under the table and laying low without a significant amount of regulation, registration, and police action. I see granting them citizenship, fining them, giving them a first degree misdemeanor, and six months probation as realistic and doable. While we do that we work on reforms to streamline the immigration process. Yes, I know some are waiting patiently and abiding by the law. But you know what... they aren't citizens, nor are they entrenched in our communities and economies. We have to resolve the illegal problem and they'll just have to understand.

I mean if that's the case let's invite everyone to come live here without going through any immigration or naturalization process.

That's not what I'm saying.

We'd be flooded with too many people before long and you know it. But that is what you are saying you want done.

Not at all. I agree most with the Libertarian Party on this one... here's what their website says...

3.4 Free Trade and Migration

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a threat to security, health or property.


Immigration
Immigration Law Should Reflect Our Dynamic Labor Market
By Daniel T. Griswold

Among its many virtues, America is a nation where laws are generally reasonable, respected and impartially enforced. A glaring exception is immigration.

Today an estimated 12 million people live in the U.S. without authorization, 1.6 million in Texas alone, and that number grows every year. Many Americans understandably want the rule of law restored to a system where law-breaking has become the norm.

The fundamental choice before us is whether we redouble our efforts to enforce existing immigration law, whatever the cost, or whether we change the law to match the reality of a dynamic society and labor market.

Low-skilled immigrants cross the Mexican border illegally or overstay their visas for a simple reason: There are jobs waiting here for them to fill, especially in Texas and other, faster growing states. Each year our economy creates hundreds of thousands of net new jobs — in such sectors as retail, cleaning, food preparation, construction and tourism — that require only short-term, on-the-job training.

At the same time, the supply of Americans who have traditionally filled many of those jobs — those without a high school diploma — continues to shrink. Their numbers have declined by 4.6 million in the past decade, as the typical American worker becomes older and better educated.

Yet our system offers no legal channel for anywhere near a sufficient number of peaceful, hardworking immigrants to legally enter the United States even temporarily to fill this growing gap. The predictable result is illegal immigration.

In response, we can spend billions more to beef up border patrols. We can erect hundreds of miles of ugly fence slicing through private property along the Rio Grande. We can raid more discount stores and chicken-processing plants from coast to coast. We can require all Americans to carry a national ID card and seek approval from a government computer before starting a new job.

Or we can change our immigration law to more closely conform to how millions of normal people actually live.

Crossing an international border to support your family and pursue dreams of a better life is not an inherently criminal act like rape or robbery. If it were, then most of us descend from criminals. As the people of Texas know well, the large majority of illegal immigrants are not bad people. They are people who value family, faith and hard work trying to live within a bad system.

When large numbers of otherwise decent people routinely violate a law, the law itself is probably the problem. To argue that illegal immigration is bad merely because it is illegal avoids the threshold question of whether we should prohibit this kind of immigration in the first place.

We've faced this choice on immigration before. In the early 1950s, federal agents were making a million arrests a year along the Mexican border. In response, Congress ramped up enforcement, but it also dramatically increased the number of visas available through the Bracero guest worker program. As a result, apprehensions at the border dropped 95 percent. By changing the law, we transformed an illegal inflow of workers into a legal flow.

For those workers already in the United States illegally, we can avoid "amnesty" and still offer a pathway out of the underground economy. Newly legalized workers can be assessed fines and back taxes and serve probation befitting the misdemeanor they've committed. They can be required to take their place at the back of the line should they eventually apply for permanent residency.

The fatal flaw of the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act was not that it offered legal status to workers already here but that it made no provision for future workers to enter legally.

Immigration is not the only area of American life where a misguided law has collided with reality. In the 1920s and '30s, Prohibition turned millions of otherwise law-abiding Americans into lawbreakers and spawned an underworld of moon-shining, boot-legging and related criminal activity. (Sound familiar?) We eventually made the right choice to tax and regulate alcohol rather than prohibit it.

In the 19th century, America's frontier was settled largely by illegal squatters. In his influential book on property rights, The Mystery of Capital, economist Hernando de Soto describes how these so-called extralegals began to farm, mine and otherwise improve land to which they did not have strict legal title. After failed attempts by the authorities to destroy their cabins and evict them, federal and state officials finally recognized reality, changed the laws, declared amnesty and issued legal documents conferring title to the land the settlers had improved.

As Mr. de Soto wisely concluded: "The law must be compatible with how people actually arrange their lives." That must be a guiding principle when Congress returns to the important task of fixing our immigration laws.
------
Daniel Griswold the is director of the Cato Institute's Center for Trade Policy Studies. For a copy of the original article, please visit Cato's Web site here.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

A large fine, let's say $10,000 - $25,000 for each illegal you hire. Probation, with the next conviction bringing some jail time and more fines.

EDIT: maybe larger fines, would have to think it through some more, but those numbers sounded decent off the top of my head.

Bro... that would bankrupt a family. Over hiring a Mexican to fix flashing? You're nuts. LOL The penalty has to truly be worthy of the crime. The hiring a Mexican to fix a person's chimney flashing isn't worth bankrupting an American family.

And what if I claimed I had no idea they were illegal?