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  #221  
Old 02-19-2009, 10:19 PM
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Re: Genesis Flood Local Or Global ?

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
That's the link I gave. You provided no link in your post. Not a biggie, but I was concerned about lurkers keeping track of it all.
That is where I got the quote from
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  #222  
Old 02-19-2009, 10:21 PM
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Re: Genesis Flood Local Or Global ?

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
Yes, but the only explanation we have for the water's source is the "fountains of the deep" and the "windows of heaven." Thus the incoming water - incoming at a massive rate, would have created created currents and eddies.

Obviously no one knows the exact nature of such an event. Would the time frame be too short for the establishment of the "conveyor" type currents and the global gyres that we see in today's seas?

In any event, the minimum condition would have been something comparable to the open seas of today. Also, that much water coming down would have required storm conditions of an almost unimaginable fury.
I don't know what fountains of the deep means, but it rained for many days. It did not rain in the mountains then flowed down into the lower lands. If rained everywhere. It was a gradual flood.
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #223  
Old 02-19-2009, 10:27 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Genesis Flood Local Or Global ?

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Originally Posted by RandyWayne View Post
It would have had to have been for the ark to survive. So why do all young earthers use the flood as a catch all to explain every canyon and mountain on the planet? One one hand, it was gentle enough for the ark to stay afloat yet violent enough to form the grand canyon and all the great mountain ranges of the planet.
That irks me too. I'm an Old Earther and I believe in a rather tranquil global flood.
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  #224  
Old 02-19-2009, 10:33 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Genesis Flood Local Or Global ?

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
Yes, but the only explanation we have for the water's source is the "fountains of the deep" and the "windows of heaven." Thus the incoming water - incoming at a massive rate, would have created created currents and eddies.

Obviously no one knows the exact nature of such an event. Would the time frame be too short for the establishment of the "conveyor" type currents and the global gyres that we see in today's seas?

In any event, the minimum condition would have been something comparable to the open seas of today. Also, that much water coming down would have required storm conditions of an almost unimaginable fury.
I think the majority of the water came from somewhere deep in the crust of the Earth. I think these "fountains of the deep" burst forth deep in the sea beds of our oceans...the result was a steadily rising sea. I believe the rains were torrential, but not unearthly.

As for the ark being on what was like the open sea... I think it depends on the terrain under the water near and around the ark. If floating above a dense mountain range it's possible that the waters weren't all that much like the open sea.
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  #225  
Old 02-19-2009, 10:33 PM
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Re: Genesis Flood Local Or Global ?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
That is where I got the quote from
So there
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  #226  
Old 02-19-2009, 10:42 PM
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Re: Genesis Flood Local Or Global ?

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I think the majority of the water came from somewhere deep in the crust of the Earth. I think these "fountains of the deep" burst forth deep in the sea beds of our oceans...the result was a steadily rising sea. I believe the rains were torrential, but not unearthly.
There does not appear to be any massive caverns that would have held the water in cistern fashion; and holding the water suspended within molten rock could not have worked due to the volatility - the whole planet would have exploded.
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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
As for the ark being on what was like the open sea... I think it depends on the terrain under the water near and around the ark. If floating above a dense mountain range it's possible that the waters weren't all that much like the open sea.
Remember - in a global flood the entire planet is the open sea. And the more shallow the sea the more pronounced the wave action. So if they were over mountain ranges the chopped would have been worse.
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  #227  
Old 02-19-2009, 10:42 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Genesis Flood Local Or Global ?

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
Thanks, I couldn't remember the exact number and was getting pushed out the door at the time. BTW - did you say that you calculated this yourself or are you citing someone else's figures?
Measurements based off of current geography. It's what would be necessary to flood the earth in 40 days and 40 nights to the level described in the Genesis account if meant to be understood as being global. I've had a friend come up with different numbers, but it's within the ball park. Only off about 12 feet per day if I remember correctly.

Quote:
In any event, where did the water come from and where did it go? What were the conditions like around the "nozzles" (sources) and "drains?" It seems that you offer no explanation other than that it was a "rabbit out of a hat" type of event. Certainly God could have done this, but is there any evidence that He did?
I believe that deep in the the crust of the earth there are oceans of water and aquifers yet discovered. I believe that much of this water was forced out of the geysers on the floor of the deep ocean floor. This was no doubt a geologic event beneath the crust that caused enough pressure to force much of this water out of these "fountains of the deep" I think that there are undersea geysers deep in the ocean that we have yet to discover also. Of course if these deep crustal waters and deep sea geysers aren't discovered I guess that totally disproves this theory. lol

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Given the absence of natural forces, your explanation clearly makes a break with the standard and most popular flood geologist and "Scientific Creationist" movements. I can respect that and your approach. But I really don't see the event as being described as "tranquil" in any means.
Tranquil is a relative term. I'd say it was tranquil compared to Flood Geology. I see it like this....
1. The Flood inundated the entire surface of the earth.

2. The surface of the earth was similar in Flood times to what it is today.

3. Therefore, God must have added some water to the amount of water which is currently on the earth to produce flooding of the highest mountains or there are large undiscovered sources of water below the surface of the earth.

4. Sea level rose 30,000 feet in 40 days, a 750-foot-per day, or approximately 30-foot-per-hour, rise in sea level.

5. Therefore, most of the earth’s surface was covered and protected from erosion within the first two weeks of the Flood.

6. Even torrential rains of the type that must have fallen would not have produced much erosion in solid rock.

7. Since the main effect of the Flood was the sea level rising, and since the sea currents would not have produced much erosion, very little sediment was eroded during the phase of rising waters.

8. Most of the plants and animals killed during the rising waters would have floated on top of the declining waters.

9. Very little sediment was available for deposition.

10. Declining waters would have produced very little additional sediment, because the dominant effect in this phase was the decline of sea level by 30,000 feet in approximately 255 days—a rate of 118 feet per day (about 4.9 feet an hour).

11. While some dead plants and animals would have been buried in what would today be recognized as diluvial sediments, most of the dead plants and animals were left on the surface of the earth by the declining waters, to be subsequently decomposed.
I'd like to know your thoughts on each point.
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  #228  
Old 02-20-2009, 12:55 AM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Re: Genesis Flood Local Or Global ?

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
...
I believe that deep in the the crust of the earth there are oceans of water and aquifers yet discovered. I believe that much of this water was forced out of the geysers on the floor of the deep ocean floor. This was no doubt a geologic event beneath the crust that caused enough pressure to force much of this water out of these "fountains of the deep" I think that there are undersea geysers deep in the ocean that we have yet to discover also. Of course if these deep crustal waters and deep sea geysers aren't discovered I guess that totally disproves this theory. lol
There have been studies done to track the circulation of water through the crust. For example, off the western coast of South America water was marked with radiological isotopes and then a few years later those same isotopes were found in the steam being emitted from Andean volcanoes. This one honestly surprised me - I would have thought that it took more than a lifetime for that water to run through the system.

There is a system in place of cycling water through the crust but there does not appear to be any vast underground reservoirs capable of emitting enough water to raise the sea levels by 6 miles.

Every earthquake is monitored and analyzed. The waves reveal the composition and density of the rocks from the core to the crust. Any vast reservoir circling the globe and with the equivalent of six miles of water depth would have been discovered long ago.
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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
...
5. Therefore, most of the earth’s surface was covered and protected from erosion within the first two weeks of the Flood.
The erosion that would have occurred and been most pronounced would have been when the continents were draining and the flood was abating. Massive canyons would have been formed. There would be literally thousands of Grand Canyons all along the margins of the continents. Most of the soil would have been washed into the sea beds.

Consider the channeled scablands in Washington state. This was caused by the run-off of the water from a large lake held back by ice dams in a series of floods between 15,000 to 13,000 years ago.

As the continents drained we should expect to similar scouring of the land globally. Thankfully we don't.
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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
6. Even torrential rains of the type that must have fallen would not have produced much erosion in solid rock.
But the soils would have been devastated globally. And the worst was yet to come. The draining of the flood waters back into those proposed aquifers would have left very little soil on the continents.
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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
7. Since the main effect of the Flood was the sea level rising, and since the sea currents would not have produced much erosion, very little sediment was eroded during the phase of rising waters.
This would appear to assume that the vast majority of the water came from "the deep." But you don't yet appear to have accounted for the water draining from the continents at the end of the flood.
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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
8. Most of the plants and animals killed during the rising waters would have floated on top of the declining waters.
One problem of the "Flood Geologist's" models is the "sorting" of the creatures in the fossil record. Somehow all of the animals were buried in a manner consistent with evolutionary biology.

You haven't addressed the fossil record, but it doesn't appear to be a consideration in your flood model any how. So I would score you higher than the ICR and AIG folks for what its worth.
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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
9. Very little sediment was available for deposition.
Actually, all of the sediment in the world was available if it was a global flood.
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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
10. Declining waters would have produced very little additional sediment, because the dominant effect in this phase was the decline of sea level by 30,000 feet in approximately 255 days—a rate of 118 feet per day (about 4.9 feet an hour).
Whenever there is a significant flood, sediments are found that can be associated with the flood event. That's just the nature of water, sediments and gravity. Despite finding such sedimentation globally, we do not find a global pattern of sediments that can be associated with a single global flood. We just find thousands and thousands of local floods.

You want to side step this problem with what I playfully called the "Global Bath Hypothesis" (tranquil). Even so, there still would have been significant formations of sedimentations and redistribution of soils that would mark such an event.
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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
11. While some dead plants and animals would have been buried in would today be recognized as diluvial sediments, most of the dead plants and animals were left on the surface of the earth by the declining waters, to be subsequently decomposed.
This disassociates your model from the fossil record (I know you realize that, I'm just pointing it out). So, we still need an explanation for the fossil record which you appear to have alluded to in the earlier discussion of Schroeder's views on time.

Essentially, as I've understood it; your model purports to "prove" the literal interpretation of Genesis 6 by showing how no such proof is necessary and in fact, that virtually all of this proof has never existed.

In the end, what you appear to be saying is that you believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis 6 but you have no proof from natural science for such a belief. And that's a fair position to take. But it does put you on the sidelines for this debate. All you have is an assertion of a belief.
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  #229  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:10 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Genesis Flood Local Or Global ?

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All you have is an assertion of a belief.
That's the essence of religion. I don't see religion as science or science as religion. The two are very different concepts and are worlds apart.

But, it may have been a more localized flood. If one translates "earth" as "land" we have a loal flood and still a quite literal interpretation.
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  #230  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:55 AM
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Re: Genesis Flood Local Or Global ?

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
That's the essence of religion. I don't see religion as science or science as religion. The two are very different concepts and are worlds apart.

But, it may have been a more localized flood. If one translates "earth" as "land" we have a loal flood and still a quite literal interpretation.

Now don't go messing with my religion, buddy!
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