Obey Them that Rule???

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by ILG

Well, that's about how smitten I am when you write stuff about people pontificating. (About as smitten as you are when people write about abusive pastors.)

I know you have seen people swell up and pontificate but I also have seen many people hurt by false accusations. So I appreciate the clarification.

Hurt by false accusations?

Hold on just a minute here...are we more serious than I thought we were?

Did you take my general statement about pontification as an accusation?

[COOPER]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Greatly smitten?

ROFL!

Come on now....Let me post something Neg. about leadership and you let the Coon dogs out!

[Michlow]

I did a little searching and I came across this article on Heb. 13:17.

After I read it and really enjoyed it, I started looking around the site like "who is this guy?", and according to the sites statement of faith, they are both oneness, and "3-steppers"

here is the link for anyone who is interested :

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/peitho.htm

For discussion purposes, I am including a portion of the article:

Relevance to the Believer

Let it not be thought that I am arguing that the idea of obedience is not found in Hebrews 13:17, but rather I am arguing that the obedience suggested comes as a result of persuasion, not dictation. The Hebrews were to allow themselves to be persuaded to obedience. Their obedience was not to be blind obedience, but obedience that came by persuasion from those who have the rule.

This passage has been illegitimately used to set up ministerial dictatorships that take prisoner-of-war anyone who sincerely questions the teachings and practices of the ministry. This is not the point of the verse. In context the author seems to imply that the authority given to those who have the rule is the authority of the Word of God (Hebrews 13:7). If it is the Word of God, and the passage implies that those who have the rule are to do some persuading, then the obedience being spoken of not some uncritically accepted, blind obedience to anything anyone in the ministry says, but the responsibility of the saint to heed to the authority of the Word of God
being spoken by the man of God. Nowhere does the Bible teach that the saints musst obey those who are not teaching God's Word, but rather their own doctrines. Jesus called these the doctrines of men and rebuked those who advocated them and followed them as though they were God's Word (Mark 7:7-8; See also Matthew 15:9; Colossians 2:22). The authority of the ministry is rooted in the Word of God.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that a man's opinion becomes as binding as the Word of God simply because of his position, yet some illegitimately teach from Hebrews 13:17 that if the ministry says "Jump," the response of the congregation should be "How high?". Such a teaching is unbiblical. The ministry is not equal with God so that they can teach and do whatever they like without accountability to someone. They are shepherds over God's flock to lead it and guide it to
Him, not to themselves. They are under-shepherds to the Great Shepherd, and thus cannot simply make up their own rules for all to follow. Their teachings must be rooted in the teachings of the Great Shepherd.

The saints are to be submissive to those who have the rule, following them as they follow Christ, but they are also to be convinced that theye are following the direction and truth of God being expressed through the man of God, and not the man himself.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by COOPER

Come on now....Let me post something Neg. about leadership and you let the Coon dogs out!

Purely a matter of principle, Coop.

Originally Posted by Ferd

Chan, I think you are projecting.

Surely there are people who are places where God has ordered.... I believe that I came to Dallas on such because that is where God wanted me.

I also know that there are many saints in churches that are there just to be saints. I suspect that some folk arent getting "Orders" from on high.

They're not seeking such "orders." However, we are required to seek and obey the will of God. If we're not where God wants us to be, we are in rebellion against Him.

Originally Posted by Actaeon

it's not: Obey Them that Rule???

it's: Obey them which have the rule over you

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Another way of saying: Have confidence in those that are in leadership in your life and surrender yourself to their leadership because of your confidence and trust in those leaders.

Obedience w/o confidence is of little value.

I disagree with your interpretation. I think it's telling us to obey those whom God has placed over us, and telling us not to be a source of grief to those whom God has placed over us. There is nothing in that passage about us needing to have "confidence and trust" in those leaders. Your interpretation is a typicially American (self-centered, "I'm sovereign over my own life") one. We really need to avoid trying to interpret scripture through the eyes of a wicked worldly culture and interpret scripture through the eyes of OUR culture (the kingdom of Heaven, not America, Canada or some other earthly nation).

[Actaeon]

Obey:

G3982
πείθω
peithō
pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

I disagree with your interpretation. I think it's telling us to obey those whom God has placed over us, and telling us not to be a source of grief to those whom God has placed over us. There is nothing in that passage about us needing to have "confidence and trust" in those leaders. Your interpretation is a typicially American (self-centered, "I'm sovereign over my own life") one. We really need to avoid trying to interpret scripture through the eyes of a wicked worldly culture and interpret scripture through the eyes of OUR culture (the kingdom of Heaven, not America, Canada or some other earthly nation).

Chan, I would like you to read the article I linked a couple posts back. He touches on this concept.

[tbpew]

My present opinion…..

You can not serve two masters.
You will either love one and hate the other, or hate one and love the other.

Who is your master?

If its Jesus, your master capacity is now FULL.

If it is someone other than Jesus, you have a circumstance where divided/contending affection, loyalty, or fidelity will have occasion.

The application of Hebrews 13 must not establish another master besides the head of the body of God’s Christ, Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

I have a responsibility to know those who I labor among, my fellow bondservants of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We can not separate the application of the word “authority” from the position of “master”. They are linked by plain vocabulary usage.

The Kingdom of God is not established as a congregation, but rather, as a body. One body with one head and many members.

The new tabernacle (a body) has replaced the old (a building). Our shared experience has been completely and forever changed.

[Blubayou]

Mich- I printed the article out, as I do not read lengthy stuff on the computer screen well. It is not a subject I have studied much, because I am not a "rebel" by nature. That being said, I did come to a point in my walk that I had to search out what I believed for myself and determine what were my convictions, and what the Bible said as far as essentials. This was not a one time event, it is something that I revisit frequently for evaluation purposes. (Outwardly, I conform to what the " church" teaches most of the time, but I do not necessarily believe they are all necessary for salvation.) My first pastor was very autocratic in his ministering style, and even though I was not a "rebel" by nature, I did not want to be a puppet in my walk with God. I don't know if these rambling make sense,just thought I would add it to the conversation.