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My statement was that John 3:5 is not a verse that we can use to show that agreed upon essentiality. In the quotes above it seems that you both bring an a priori assumption into the reading of the John 3. As soon as water is mentioned you assume it means baptism. But break down the conversation itself as it develops and put yourself into the shoes of the perplexed Nicodemas for a moment.
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I do assume water is referring to water baptism but I'm not sure how you got that from my post on this thread.
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Nicodemas begins the dialog by commenting that no one could do the miracles that Jesus had done, "except God be with Him." Instead of responding directly to Nicodemas' assertion - and openly professing His divine identity,
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How often did Jesus directly profess his divine identity? He indirectly confessed it many times but directly saying "I'm YHWH in the flesh", can't find it.
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Jesus says that you must be "born again" (or "from above). The phrase "born again" in the Greek is ambiguous; it can be understood two ways. Jesus (and especially John, by selecting this conversation as a highlight in his gospel) is presenting a fork in the road for both Nicodemas and the reader. Do we go with the meaning "again" or "above?"
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We can go with both for to be born from above would mean that one would need to be born again. A new spiritual birth as opposed to the old natural birth.
John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
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Nicodemas goes with "again." "How can I enter again into my mother's womb...?" Nicodemas seems to show that what Jesus is saying is ridiculous. Nicodemas is fixated upon this world here below. He has, for whatever reasons, seemed to have eliminated the world "above" from his thinking.
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I think Nicodemus was taken aback by this:
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. and by his response in verse 4:
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?, Nicodemus clearly took Jesus literally because he knew of no other birth but a natural birth. Yes, I agree that Nicodemus didn't consider any other type of birth even one from above.
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It's this type of thinking that Jesus wants to change. So he goes on and contrasts the things from "above" with the things from "below."
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This is where we interpret this passage differently.
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The phrase "water and Spirit" is one of those contrasts. Being born from the "water" of his mother's womb was needed- just to be sitting there Nicodemas obviously had to have been born of his mother. But Jesus wants him to look beyond the earthly and look up. He must be born from "above," that is by the Spirit.
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The word,
and, connecting water and Spirit in verse 5 is including the two together as the spiritual birth not contrasting them. Nor is it saying you must be born of flesh and born of Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. The contrast comes in verse 6 when Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh.....a natural birth and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit...a spiritual birth.
John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Compare this with
John 1:12-13. Those who are born of God are not born of the flesh. So when Jesus says a man must be born of water and of the Spirit, He is not in any way referring to a natural birth...or born of the flesh.
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How is one truly "born from above?" Well, as I said, that's the part we already agree upon, Acts 2:38.[/FONT][/COLOR]
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If you consider
Acts 2:38 as the new birth, how come you understand
John 3:5 as something else?
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE....
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart
fervently.
Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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