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  #211  
Old 07-28-2007, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Hardly sour grapes Brother Daniel just wanting to go with the facts.
Brother Norris, Bernard, and Elder Hall should also have to meet the scrutiny of all those who want to dig up the truth.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com
Primary documents are also presented in this book in a comprehensive manner ... I've never seen Hall or even Bernard provide the meticulous documentation and annotation that Fudge did in his book ... its done on almost every page .... Get outta here w/ this ..... Benny.
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  #212  
Old 07-28-2007, 12:53 AM
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Oh ... c'mon Benincasa have you ever read Hall's historical accounts ... they don't even attempt to report the minority view ... to discount first hand accounts of history by ministers of the Gospel on both sides of the issue is dishonest on your part and demonstrates your agenda ....
Excuse me but their is no agenda when someone asks you to look closely at what you're reading. It's hardly agenda seeking when you can steer men to a certain book or file where they too can view the same research.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com
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  #213  
Old 07-28-2007, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Excuse me but their is no agenda when someone asks you to look closely at what you're reading. It's hardly agenda seeking when you can steer men to a certain book or file where they too can view the same research.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com
If you ever think that you will get a historical account that is 100% objective and void of any bias .. that is INSANITY.

The Marxian view of history teaches us that history is written by the "winners" .... For years ... an important and untold story had been sanitized within the org ... that story was finally told ...

There are men alive today that can testify to it ... Even conservative men like Epley have verified the veracity of many of the details provide in this book ....

History is the account of past events through the eyes of the historian ... for years we got only one perspective ...
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  #214  
Old 07-28-2007, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Primary documents are also presented in this book in a comprehensive manner ... I've never seen Hall or even Bernard provide the meticulous documentation and annotation that Fudge did in his book ... its done on almost every page .... Get outta here w/ this ..... Benny.

Again you're mistaken you are not given the primary sources. You may be told where he received his information, but you cannot view it for yourself.
I ask if Thomas Fudge had released his material? Has he? He said he would.
These are the things one needs to make a correct decision. Why the fear?
Is Thomas Fudge's book some holy manual?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com
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~Declaration of Independence
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  #215  
Old 07-28-2007, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Hardly sour grapes Brother Daniel just wanting to go with the facts.
Brother Norris, Bernard, and Elder Hall should also have to meet the scrutiny of all those who want to dig up the truth.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com
The fact is the UPCI wouldn't allow a man access to source material in their library which might help to provide more accuracy and detail in regard to OP history - particularly as it relates to the UPCI but would go even beyond those boundaries.

So who is being open and who isn't? Who is withholding information that could give perhaps more insight and balance (if it is indeed wanting as some would say)? And why would they do that? What is the fear factor?
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  #216  
Old 07-28-2007, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Again you're mistaken you are not given the primary sources. You may be told where he received his information, but you cannot view it for yourself.
I ask if Thomas Fudge had released his material? Has he? He said he would.
These are the things one needs to make a correct decision. Why the fear?
Is Thomas Fudge's book some holy manual?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com
Eghhh ... letters are quoted .... including those of Vouga .... some have been quoted by others also .....

I think your ire should be directed at the "Kremlin" that sought to sanitize and silence this endeavor.
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  #217  
Old 07-28-2007, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
If you ever think that you will get a historical account that is 100% objective and void of any bias .. that is INSANITY.
That's why there are so many views of certain points in History. Take the Civil War, there is lots of information concerning that part of time, but one must take in all the information to come up with a balance view. Agenda builders don't want a balanced view because they hold an agenda, and if their agenda gets defeated they would have to recant their flawed position.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
The Marxian view of history teaches us that history is written by the "winners" .... For years ... an important and untold story had been sanitized within the org ... that story was finally told ...
My point exactly Brother Daniel, so you have Thomas Fudge getting shown the door at Hazelwood and having an attitude that shows as he writes his book. It was obvious and that was sad to see. So what you have left is Thomas Fudge's bias view of our history.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
There are men alive today that can testify to it ... Even conservative men like Epley have verified the veracity of many of the details provide in this book ....
A few men, have you talked to all these men other than Elder Epley?
It’s called research Brother Daniel. I'm not going to bank on a few people on an Internet forum to compile history. Yes some things may be close or even correct. Still the good students makes real sure he covers his bases by finding the BEST primary sources. One witness does not give you all the facts.


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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
History is the account of past events through the eyes of the historian ... for years we got only one perspective ...
When studying the Roman Empire you have quite a few different sources to choose from, and even now we are gathering new information. Our view of history is ever changing as new finds and new research is being given.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com
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~Declaration of Independence
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  #218  
Old 07-28-2007, 01:16 AM
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Benny ... HOGWASH!!!!

I'm looking at the bibliography right now ...

over 200 works available to the public and mostly apostolic are cited ... pre and post merger... such as the early Apostolic and Pentecostal Heralds.

He interviewed 229 people on both sides of the issue.

He also has well over 100 letters of correspondence cited.

Bernard and Hall can't even touch him in sheer volume or in scholarship.

PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME POST THE PAGES OF THE BIBLIOGRAPHY.
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  #219  
Old 07-28-2007, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Eghhh ... letters are quoted .... including those of Vouga .... some have been quoted by others also .....
Brother Daniel, having a part of a letter quoted and having the letter in front of you are two different things.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
I think your ire should be directed at the "Kremlin" that sought to sanitize and silence this endeavor.
I doubt that, I just want a balanced view. It was easy to see that Fudge caught an attitude with J.L. Hall. The book shows it.

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com
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"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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  #220  
Old 07-28-2007, 01:24 AM
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Fudge's complaint about the non-cooperation of Hazelwood was not as an excuse for not having enough sources ... he obviously did ...

he sought to be as objective and comprehensive as possible considering he did have a thesis he sought to prove ...

he simply asked for transparency and access to archives ... and was rejected.

The reluctance of the org to cooperate underscores their attitude towards TRUTH ....
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