Knowledge is such a fickle thing. Can you ever truly know 100% for a fact that your wife never ever cheated on you? You can't! Human knowledge is based primarily on trust. Whether it's trusting your senses or trusting your wife, our knowledge stems from trust. Trust is faith. It's not blind faith, but its still faith. We can't really know anything because at any time our eyes may be playing tricks on us, our wife may be lying to us, or maybe what we thought happened only occured in a dream.
So our knowledge of anything is based on faith and trust. So next time NotForSale asks how do you know there is an afterlife. Politely ask him how he knows his wife hasn't cheated on him. His reasons for believing his wife hasn't cheated on him are pretty similar to your reasons for believing in an afterlife i assure you
Others have cleared the air on this post, jfrog, but I will say this; you can prove your wife is cheating on you, but you can't prove the Afterlife. Whether your wife is ever found guilty might be one thing, but we have proven today with DNA testing, we can set free the falsely condemned, and put the real criminal behind bars, and that includes sexual crimes.
The Afterlife, though, there is no way to confirm it's real unless we yield to Spectral Evidence, which Courts don't use because of what happened in the Salem Witch Trials. And, adultery has been around since the beginning and is found clearly in the Bible (New and Old Testaments), and we have observed the devastating consequences of adultery in our own lifetime.
The Afterlife and Adultery; not even close in comparison.
We know that the Jews believed in an extensive afterlife doctrine by studying the Midrash, the Mishnah, the Zohar, and other rabbinical writings. Their commentary on Gilgul Ha Neshamot (transmigration/reincarnation) is just one example.
Aquila, but you know as well as I do, the Afterlife is not an Old Testament Doctrine like today. They talked about it, mention it, debate it, (outside of Scripture and the Torah) but no where can you find Eternal Damnation/Torture in any Jewish teachings, and Gehenna was considered a 12 month punishment for evildoers, (for the Jews who believe in an Afterlife), not burning in fire and brimstone forever.
You also cannot find Heaven as a place of streets of gold, walls of jasper, mansions, etc. These are New Testament teachings that the Jews do not uphold, and we all know, the Jews do not accept the New Testament as sacred or holy Doctrine.
The continuity of the New and Old Testaments is very poor, and are clearly worlds apart from modern Christianity and the teachings we deem as truth. Men put them together, not G-d, and we must see the difference if we are to make honest conclusions about our Religion/Faith, especially regarding the Afterlife.
So God exists separate from and above His own creation? He is involved, and even "in" the universe, but He also exists ontologically apart from the universe.
I wonder "where" that "place" is, that God exists apart from and above His creation, and if whether or not we should call it "heaven", an otherwise true reality only known and experienced through spectral manifestations and revelation given to us by God???
Good question! I don't have the answer. Your question is the reason there are a million opinions about something we are not sure of. We speculate, presume, and even hope, but the fact remains, if you or I believe in a Creator, that Being is beyond anything we can imagine or believe!
G-d did give me a Family, so I try to conclude my ideals from that. The Family was before the Bible, Religion, Politics, and other distractions. In the rawest form, the Family is tied together with genetics, blood, and character. We can observe every facet of life through our Families; love, failure, discipline, success, maturity, these and more tie us directly to "REALITY" and to each other.
I call every Family, "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly". Just go to a Family Reunion like mine. We have prison bums, divorcees, thieves, business owners, Democrats, Republicans, Catholics, Pentecostals, alcoholics, women, children, and the list goes on. For the most part, we pretty much accept each other for who we are. We help each other, pray for each other, and we always try to call around to make sure everyone is doing "OK".
Eternity doesn't fit in this mix, at least the Christian Eternity I found in Religion. If I believe the Doctrine I was taught as a young convert, I'm the only one going to Heaven in my Family, because I am (was) the only 3 stepper.
This whole issue is not only confusing, but is a dark form isolating people with ideas that break the Family apart, while stepping on the weak with false judgment and condemnation that does not conform to Nature or attributes necessary to raise humans in World that isn't perfect.
And let me say this in conclusion; as a Father who loves my children unconditionally, I could NEVER cast my children or other Family members into a place like Hell, no matter how bad they failed or sinned. I know that people are pathetic, including me, and my Faith is resting upon the idea that I am a small part of a Great Creator who passed down very special genetics, and a heart that sees beyond the failure of Humans who just can't get it together.
No wonder no one goes to Hell at a Funeral. All of the Family is there!!!!
Good question! I don't have the answer. Your question is the reason there are a million opinions about something we are not sure of. We speculate, presume, and even hope, but the fact remains, if you or I believe in a Creator, that Being is beyond anything we can imagine or believe!
G-d did give me a Family, so I try to conclude my ideals from that. The Family was before the Bible, Religion, Politics, and other distractions. In the rawest form, the Family is tied together with genetics, blood, and character. We can observe every facet of life through our Families; love, failure, discipline, success, maturity, these and more tie us directly to "REALITY" and to each other.
I call every Family, "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly". Just go to a Family Reunion like mine. We have prison bums, divorcees, thieves, business owners, Democrats, Republicans, Catholics, Pentecostals, alcoholics, women, children, and the list goes on. For the most part, we pretty much accept each other for who we are. We help each other, pray for each other, and we always try to call around to make sure everyone is doing "OK".
Eternity doesn't fit in this mix, at least the Christian Eternity I found in Religion. If I believe the Doctrine I was taught as a young convert, I'm the only one going to Heaven in my Family, because I am (was) the only 3 stepper.
This whole issue is not only confusing, but is a dark form isolating people with ideas that break the Family apart, while stepping on the weak with false judgment and condemnation that does not conform to Nature or attributes necessary to raise humans in World that isn't perfect.
And let me say this in conclusion; as a Father who loves my children unconditionally, I could NEVER cast my children or other Family members into a place like Hell, no matter how bad they failed or sinned. I know that people are pathetic, including me, and my Faith is resting upon the idea that I am a small part of a Great Creator who passed down very special genetics, and a heart that sees beyond the failure of Humans who just can't get it together.
No wonder no one goes to Hell at a Funeral. All of the Family is there!!!!
Just such thoughts help direct me to search out and find that accordingly to scripture God's purpose is to redeem all His creation, "the good the bad, and the ugly." The ultimate reconciliation of all humans to God and to each other is the only conclusion that answers all the questions and does not blaspheme the character of the Eternal. And is faithful to the Spirit of the scriptures.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
But there's another category of things that can be known. There are many everyday things we interact with and know. Gravity. (That we can "overcome" gravity, as in a plane or rocket, doesn't count. We're talking everyday stuff, here. ) Eating will sustain us; not eating for long enough will kill us. Same for breathing. Love.
We can even know some things that aren't 100% reliable, in a sense. We know a light switch will work, even though it won't, once in a while -- circuit breaker, bulb burned out, etc. Our car will almost always get us where we want to go. We know that these things work under normal circumstances.
But the category of things we can know or not that NfS is talking about is very different. The afterlife is not an everyday thing we deal with in our normal lives. When someone says the know about the afterlife, and give us details of what will happen and what it will be like (even if it's "so wonderful we can't even imagine" or some such), they only "know" it in the sense that they have decided to believe it's true. The only reason they do that is because they can read about it in a book, and the book can do no better than to make assertions and require that the reader accept them.
OK, I guess there's another reason: they feel it's true. Maybe they've had dreams, or they heard voices. They will likely not accept the obvious fact that these things cannot be known to be genuine. To do so would cast doubt on what they want to believe.
Which is fine. I guess. Until these beliefs lead to heartache, fear, and despair. Which they often do. How could they not? Not only can no one actually know (except in the sense above, that they have decided to know) what happens after death in general, they really can't know what specific afterlife they will experience -- did they meet the requirements for a good afterlife? And even, in a way, worse: they can't possibly know whether their loved ones will have a good afterlife. It is not possible, and any honest believer will agree. You have to wonder if your child, say, will spend eternity in hell.
Well, I don't. But "believers" do.
Just because something works many repeatable times does not mean it will necessarily work the next time. However with this said, I have no problem dropping the requirement of absolute proof from knowledge and saying that in order for something to be knowledge it simply must be a very repeatable experience. This is the basis of our world and most of the knowledge we have.
However there is another kind of knowledge too. Historical knowledge. In historical knowledge we take the word of an authority, either someone that was there or extensively studied the subject. This kind of knowledge more than any other requires faith in the authority. In fact, the knowledge of the afterlife would most closely be tied in with this kind of knowledge.
Christians trust Jesus and books written by people close to Jesus and they believe that Jesus said that there was a heaven and a hell. Jesus is there authority, just like my history teacher and books written by other history teachers form the basis of my historical knowledge. In historical knowledge it is all about having faith in others and taking their words for something that we are never going to get to experience first hand.
Belief in an afterlife is alot like believing that an English King was excommunicated from the catholic church. We weren't there to see it happen. We will never experience that first hand. But, we still believe it is true. Why?
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
Good question! I don't have the answer. Your question is the reason there are a million opinions about something we are not sure of. We speculate, presume, and even hope, but the fact remains, if you or I believe in a Creator, that Being is beyond anything we can imagine or believe!
G-d did give me a Family, so I try to conclude my ideals from that. The Family was before the Bible, Religion, Politics, and other distractions. In the rawest form, the Family is tied together with genetics, blood, and character. We can observe every facet of life through our Families; love, failure, discipline, success, maturity, these and more tie us directly to "REALITY" and to each other.
I call every Family, "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly". Just go to a Family Reunion like mine. We have prison bums, divorcees, thieves, business owners, Democrats, Republicans, Catholics, Pentecostals, alcoholics, women, children, and the list goes on. For the most part, we pretty much accept each other for who we are. We help each other, pray for each other, and we always try to call around to make sure everyone is doing "OK".
Eternity doesn't fit in this mix, at least the Christian Eternity I found in Religion. If I believe the Doctrine I was taught as a young convert, I'm the only one going to Heaven in my Family, because I am (was) the only 3 stepper.
This whole issue is not only confusing, but is a dark form isolating people with ideas that break the Family apart, while stepping on the weak with false judgment and condemnation that does not conform to Nature or attributes necessary to raise humans in World that isn't perfect.
And let me say this in conclusion; as a Father who loves my children unconditionally, I could NEVER cast my children or other Family members into a place like Hell, no matter how bad they failed or sinned. I know that people are pathetic, including me, and my Faith is resting upon the idea that I am a small part of a Great Creator who passed down very special genetics, and a heart that sees beyond the failure of Humans who just can't get it together.
No wonder no one goes to Hell at a Funeral. All of the Family is there!!!!
See, I can take you at your word and understand you better with the above comments. I have no reason to doubt or question your expressed, sincerely held beliefs as stated above.
But re-read the sum of your comments in this post as unbiased as you can and contrast them to the ones you made above. You're coming off as a completely different person from the rest of the post.
You've taken a completely personal development and projected it onto everyone else that still holds the the faith you say you once erroneously embraced. You accuse everyone of hurting their loved ones by believing what we believe because YOU hurt YOUR loved ones by believing what you used to believe.
In this post, you've made terrible assumption after terrible assumption and accused all of us religious believers as deceived, manipulative, hurtful, menacing, judgmental fear-mongers dependent only on what you call spectral evidence in order to believe in an after-life when the fact is:
You are only describing the man you admit you used to be. Stop spitting out the past garbage on your own soul onto everyone else! You assume that all religious people currently ARE how you used to be, and you have no proof!
That's my issue. Had you simply said from the very beginning what you said above, I would have never replied to you or interacted with this post at all.
I hope you can see this for what it is and is not: not an attack, not a disparaging of your person, or even any sort of antagonistic reply. It is only this: a rebuttal for how wrongly and selfishly (through psychological projection) you've gone on the offensive against nearly everyone in this post who doesn't agree with you.
No animosity is intended and hopefully not received. But I hope you can see past yourself a moment and realize what you did in this post to what I can only think are pretty decent people who I've had the pleasure to interact with here at AFF.
Disagree with anyone at your leisure. Even tenaciously hold to your view as you see fit. But enough with the ad hominem assaults on any and every religious person who believes in the Bible and an after-life as promised by the Bible. It's just not kosher. It is beneath you.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:
What will happen to people when they die? Not one person here, there, or anywhere can answer this question. You can say until you're blue in the face that you know, but you don't.
Every Religion claims to know, and the Afterlife has become the Benchmark of manipulation within these Religions to control people with ideas that cannot be proven.
Over the Millenniums of time, we have watched this process evolve from not knowing, to knowing, yet nothing has really changed accept Religion. And Religion has learned, when there are no more chips left on the table, there is one left no one can see but them, called, the Afterlife.
It's Religions Ace in the Hole! The Grand Finale! The Last Straw! The Perfect Ploy to control the Weak with Fear! It's The Feast and Table Spread of the Superstitious!
Anything true and of God requires FAITH in us, which means there is no visible evidence and we trust it is correct.
Can't avoid that element if we want to know God. He just MADE it that way.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
We all live our lives with some sort of faith in the unseen, we all process information differently therefore the definition of our unseen is different than another's.
So, don't be so critical of others faith, your new founded belief also is based on faith in what you NOW believe.
Loss of fear of the unseen, in my opinion, is the greatest of faith. Faith that the majesty of the cosmos was by design, including good and evil on this earth. Faith that the Eternal, with such ability as is displayed in the physical world hasn't lost His ability to complete what is in motion. I desire to know "Him" as He really is, therefore I continue to seek, critical of human forced interpretations.
The use of the tradition view of hell is the worst of all human manipulations, which instills fear of the Eternal, and is, in fact blasphemy against the Creator.
"Perfect love casts out fear...." yet religion capitalizes on fear, and that is just wrong.
Bump
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
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