Crossdressing...Just how does a woman participate?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

So are you going to start wearing skirts now since you got this revalation?

Im not the UltraCon that sees a pagan under every rock. But if the UCs were consistant in their arguments against rings then they should stop wearing pants too

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I edited my post and added historical documentation and it said nothing about rice fields.

LOL!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

So, you were coming from a snarky point of view. I never would have guessed that, Prax!

Better to be snarky than smarmy

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Better to be snarky than smarmy

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What about ancient chinese women in the rice fields? I heard that is where it started. that was the case in the Han Dynasty.

Also...

[edit]Antiquity


Scythian archer. Interior from an Ancient Greek Attic red-figure plate, ca. 520–500 BC, from Vulci. British Museum, London.

Germanic trousers of the 4th century found in the Thorsberg moor, Germany

Trousers first enter recorded history in the 6th century BCE, with the appearance of horse-riding Iranian peoples in Greek ethnography. At this time, not only the Persians, but also allied Central Asian peoples such as the Bactrians, Armenians, and the Tigraxauda Scythians are known to have worn them.[4][5] Trousers are believed to have been worn by both sexes among these early users.

...from

^ Payne, Blanche. History of Costume. Harper & Row , 1965. pp. 49–51
^ book name: The Persian Army 560–330 BC, Author: Nicholas Sekunda, Illustrator: Simon Chew – http://www.ospreypublishing.com/stor...bookcode=p2501
^ Lever, James. Costume and Fashion: A Concise History. Thames and Hudson, 1995, 2010. p. 15.

"...believed to have been." Not quite an emphatic - yes they did, but we can file that away for further study.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

When the Manchu ruled China during the Qing Dynasty, certain social strata emerged. Among them were the Banners (qí), mostly Manchu, who as a group were called Banner People (旗人 pinyin: qí rén). Manchu women typically wore a one-piece dress that retrospectively came to be known as the qípáo (旗袍 or banner gown). The generic term for both the male and the female forms of Manchu dress, essentially similar garments, was chángpáo (長袍). The qipao fitted loosely and hung straight down the body, or flared slightly in an A-line. Under the dynastic laws after 1636, all Han Chinese in the banner system were forced to wear a queue and dress in Manchurian qipao instead of traditional Han Chinese clothing (剃发易服), under penalty of death (along with the July 1645 edict (the "haircutting order") that forced all adult Han Chinese men to shave the front of their heads and comb the remaining hair into a queue, on pain of death). Until 1911, the changpao was required clothing for Chinese men of a certain class, but Han Chinese women continued to wear loose jacket and trousers, with an overskirt for formal occasions. The qipao was a new fashion item for Han Chinese women when they started wearing it around 1925.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheongsam

That's interesting that they would wear trousers and then a new fashion item, a long dress (qipao), in 1925. I was reading that trousers were introduced off and on in Europe, but only took off in the 16th century.

And, BTW, this article isn't ancient China. The Qing Dynasty timeline was 1644-1911

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

"...believed to have been." Not quite an emphatic - yes they did, but we can file that away for further study.

Your leaning towards no pants is quite evident.

Basically, the idea needs to be considered... Pants became men's apparel when robes used to be men's apparel, not due to God's leading. It was purely cultural. To say women should not wear pants today is ignoring this historical fact and refusing to apply the same principle in accepting pants for men to pants for women. God never had pants in mind whatsoever when words were written about masculine attire as opposed to women's. And dresses and skirts can be as immodest as SOME pants on women, while pants on women are often more modest then those immodest skirts and dresses. There are very modest pants for women. When we time lock ourselves into the last few decades we lived, we fail to realize God surveys all of time since the beginning. And he made no pants for man. Just a coat, and the same was for Eve, for that matter. And the only reason anyone would push for no pants on women is a cultural issue amongst some denominations, alone. People just have to admit that.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Your leaning towards no pants is quite evident.

Basically, the idea needs to be considered... Pants became men's apparel when robes used to be men's apparel, not due to God's leading. It was purely cultural. To say women should not wear pants today is ignoring this historical fact and refusing to apply the same principle in accepting pants for men to pants for women. God never had pants in mind whatsoever when words were written about masculine attire as opposed to women's. And dresses and skirts can be as immodest as SOME pants on women, while pants on women are often more modest then those immodest skirts and dresses. There are very modest pants for women. When we time lock ourselves into the last few decades we lived, we fail to realize God surveys all of time since the beginning. And he made no pants for man. Just a coat, and the same was for Eve, for that matter. And the only reason anyone would push for no pants on women is a cultural issue amongst some denominations, alone. People just have to admit that.

I've never seen or tried on a pair of modest pants in my entire life. LOL! If I'm going to wear them, they sure in the world aren't going to be loose like a bag lady. So, that isn't going to work for me.

I think that most denominations had women wearing dresses. I know the Catholic Church did when we were growing up. When pantsuits came in vogue, it was a big issue and finally the Catholic Church relented so as not to lose members.

Oops.....

Women wearing pants was historically virtually non-existent but has become commonplace since the advent of feminism in the middle to late 20th century. Today, most women wear pants in Western cultures some of the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_wearing_pants

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I've never seen or tried on a pair of modest pants in my entire life. LOL! If I'm going to wear them, they sure in the world aren't going to be loose like a bag lady. So, that isn't going to work for me.

I think that most denominations had women wearing dresses. I know the Catholic Church did when we were growing up. When pantsuits came in vogue, it was a big issue and finally the Catholic Church relented so as not to lose members.

Oops.....

That sounds a lot like what all the "christian" churches did.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I've never seen or tried on a pair of modest pants in my entire life. LOL! If I'm going to wear them, they sure in the world aren't going to be loose like a bag lady. So, that isn't going to work for me.

I think that most denominations had women wearing dresses. I know the Catholic Church did when we were growing up. When pantsuits came in vogue, it was a big issue and finally the Catholic Church relented so as not to lose members.

Oops.....

Saying what is modest and what is not is far too slanted in many folks. I know the power of a trend in a fellowship firsthand.

And the western culture feminist issue you cite from the same source where I found words that ancient women wore trousers is based upon the idea that what was involved in something's origin is more important than what the actual something is in and of itself, while you agreed Europe influenced our culture with men dressing like modern-day fruitcakes in France () when they first wore pants. To be consistent, your emphasis on stressing feminism's roots with pants for women ought to cause you to abandon pants for men for the French reasons of origin in our culture.