I was browsing the "eternal/temporary torture" thread and read where someone suggested infants are born innocent? I do understand the sensitivity of an infant's death and their eternal status. However, are infants really born "innocent?
We've read that, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12), and we also know, "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).
If infants were born innocent and/or sinless, they would be "per-se" a duplication of Jesus. Yes, Jesus was sinless, but in order for Jesus to die, he had to become sin. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God ( 2nd Corinthians 5:21).
Thus, Jesus' murderer wasn't any individual but rather sin killed Him. If a child was born sinless, he/she would be exempt from Romans 5:12. Therefore, infants aren't sinless.
It is not that babies are not sinless but they are not responsible for sin due to inability to make choice.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
The manner in which the bible teaches the issue shows the sin nature is in mankind. Why else would the bible say that sin indwelt Paul? You have to explain that away just like Romans 5, when Romans 7 says it was not Paul who directly did the wrong but sin that dwelt in him. He clearly distinguished himself from a moral force -- a principle -- lying within himself called "sin". In his flesh was a law that worked against the law of God which his mind was fully in agreement to obey. But he could not obey the law of God with sheer willingness in his mind alone. His flesh housed ANOTHER LAW. It was law against law. That means that although Genesis did not read about a sin nature entering the human race, that is all we can conclude due to the words of Paul in Romans 7. Otherwise, Adam and JESUS BOTH had to be able to say what was true of Paul in Romans 7 was true of them both!
What say ye to that?
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Also that means "Adams" was not a sinful nature but of choice and free will to choose. He did not need a sin nature to sin and nor do we.
Adam did not have the propensity to sin in his flesh until he actually sinned. God did not make Adam the way Paul described himself here:
Romans 7:16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
What about Jesus? Could Jesus make those same claims Paul did?
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
yes it does reveal the level of current faith. Does not mean your faith is always the same or you don't grow or lose faith.
True, our level of faith often waxes and wanes. However, temptations and trials aren’t designed to reveal to God where our faith might be on the faith-o-meter (He already knows). Temptations and trials are designed specifically to reveal to us where we stand with regards to our level of faith. This too is a wonderful design. You see… many “believe” they are born again… but are not. Many “believe” that they have a lot of faith… but they do not. These things reveal to us what our inner nature truly is. Or perhaps where our faith truly is. Why? So that we might respond to God’s desire for us in these areas. You see, if I find myself able to live in continued sin without guilt, shame, or a sense of condemnation… if I find myself able to justify my sin and perfectly happy to live with it… it reveals to me that I truly do not have a changed nature. I’m not truly regenerated. I may have tasted the gift of God… but I haven’t truly received the fullness of the salvation Christ offers. Here is where we make our calling and election sure by confessing sin and repenting. Not committing ourselves to never do such things again… but praying that God change our very nature that we not do those things again, reckoning that He will indeed do so.
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typical... People names are taken in and out as a matter of justice IN TIME. Whether God knows the end or not does not negate justice IN TIME! HELLO!
Michael: “Lord, Aquila was born again! I saw his name in your book!” [Michael rejoices.]
The Lord: “Keep the White Out handy Michael.”
Michael: “Lord, Aquila just lost his temper and said something very unlike you.” [Michael frowns.]
Give me a break…
The Lord: “Erase his name Michael.”
[Michael begins to erase Aquila’s name.]
Michael: “Lord look, Aquila just repented at the alter and shook the preacher’s hand!”
The Lord: “Yes, please write his name back in the book Michael.”
[Michael begins to feverishly write Aquila’s name back on the book of life.]
The Lord: “Oh wait Michael, Aquila just had a carnal thought. Better erase it again.”
Bill Gates: “Lord, you know we have a software package wherein your book of life can be converted into a database that updates the status of your believer’s salvation status in real time. This can save you quite a bit in both time and money.” [Bill Gates smiles.]
[God begins thinking while Michael looks distressed. Suddenly Michael vanishes in a POOF of smoke and Bill Gates is suddenly standing with wings and a halo.]
LOL
Bro… that’s like saying God didn’t know what the outcome would be when the names were first entered into the book of life. Since God is omniscient, those names were recorded with absolute certainty. I’m sure even the angels gaze at a person’s name and wonder. Kind of like this…
Michael: “Lord, I noticed you have Aquila’s name in the book of life. Why? He’s not living for you at all!”
The Lord: “My dearest angel Michael, you see Aquila as he is… I see him as he ultimately will be.”
In my opinion Luke, your theology has a God who is sitting on the edge of His seat hoping you make it. And you’re down here “trying” and “doing” to please Him (when in fact He demands an absolute perfection you have never nor will ever achieve on this earth). In my perspective God knows exactly where all things will stand after time is no more. In fact, He knew it from eternity and predicated His redemptive plan according to His foreknowledge, ordained it to be so, and in His mind it’s set in stone. We have free will… However, God being all knowing knew exactly what every choice made would be, permitted it, and ordained it to be so. So in my theology both free will and predestination are realities.
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I am not arminian.
Arminianism and Calvinism are the primary frameworks. Mollenism is a complicated option. Most see a kind of blind in the Scriptures.
no but you are treating obedience like it must/can only come from a imparted nature and that is not true.
Depends on how you define obedience. Muslims and Jews are rather “obedient” to God’s laws. However, Jesus said a man must be born again of the water and of the Spirit. Being born of Spirit is a reference to Spirit baptism, or regeneration. That is the impartation of the new nature. Paul voiced in Romans how without a new nature, a man with a fallen nature cannot truly please God.
You see, biblical Christianity isn’t about what you do… it’s about what you are. Are you a religious person who is following laws… or are you a new creature with a new nature, walking in grace, and submitting to the calling of that inner nature to righteousness and good works? Those who are merely obedient are essentially “treating the symptoms” (various sinful behaviors), they are not getting to the root of the disease… our sinful nature. One can treat a disease until the symptoms subside, but they are still diseased and the symptoms will return or manifest in a different manner. Or one can cure the disease and the symptoms will subside and vanish, never to return.
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Also no that is not what scripture says! God justice was done toward Abraham's response of faithfulness. God considered his response of faith, JUST! Abraham received the promise by OBEDIENCE. We receive the righteous justice of Christ toward us IF we follow him. 1 John 1:7 and he cleanses us of our unrighteousness. I also notice you side stepped the issue. I asked about nature to do and you jumped to justice imputed to avoid the issue.
One cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws them. One cannot say that Jesus is Lord but by the work of the Holy Ghost. You are POWERLESS to follow or please God without the Spirit of God residing in you. A man MUST be born again of the water and of the Spirit.
technically I would agree with this statement. We are his hands and feet. We are given the divine commandment and the perfection of it's realization is guided by the Spirit in how to do it more perfectly. Wihtout this response of "contextual" response of faith we are law breakers and are not partaking of him. We have broken communion with his Spirit. Which results in not being "in" him and not in fellowship with the body and cleansed by his blood.
How does one know if they have lost their salvation? I don’t keep the Law. I can’t. It condemned me with the ministry of condemnation to lead me to Christ, but the Law means nothing to me. I am not bound to obey the Law, but I am called to be conformed into the very image of Christ Jesus. And that can only be done through the transforming power of His own abiding presence.
God's holiness demands ABSOLUTE AND PERFECT HOLINESS. A person who sins once a week is no more righteous than one who sins 10 times a day. Both are sinners and are infinitely fallen short of God's holiness. One can only be holy through Christ's own righteousness and nature being imparted to them, that they might be counted holy according to Christ's holiness. Regeneration brings instant and complete sanctification. However, an individual must sanctify their minds by renewing their minds through the Word, taking on the very mind of Jesus Christ. Thus in one sense we are sanctified, signed, sealed, and delivered. In another we are progressively sanctifying ourselves through the power of the Spirit and the Word of God.
For that to happen, is there anything you need to do?
Surrender self. Self must die. Paul said,
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Paul reckoned himself crucified (dead) through Christ. So now Paul's life isn't His own, but Chrsit is living His own life out through Paul. The life Paul now lives in the flesh, he lived by the faith of the Son of God, who loved him, and gave Himself for Paul.
Our problem is that we havent' done this. We do for God... instead of reckoning ourselves dead and allowing God to do through us. The average Christian doesn't know who they are in Christ. They don't see Christianity as a change of nature and identity. They see it as a "practice" a set of "rules for living" wherewith they hope to be admitted to Heaven. They don't even realize that they are DEAD. Instead they resurrect self and try to please God through a self generated righteousness. That is what self righteousness is. Many good people are fallen into this error.
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