The poor in America

[coadie]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I believe we have ventured very far afield from the original point. I believe there are almost zero "poor" in America.
Poor in the context which the Bible uses.
Poor as in "starving".
The stats in my original post show this.

Do you believe this or not?

You are correct. If I see the Heritage article, I estimate 10% of those labeled poor are actually poor.
Haiti had the poor. People diligently looking for wood, twigs stuff to burn in an open fire for cooking or heat.

we are getting sermons and heavy duty preaching from socialite.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by coadie

You are correct. If I see the Heritage article, I estimate 10% of those labeled poor are actually poor.
Haiti had the poor. People diligently looking for wood, twigs stuff to burn in an open fire for cooking or heat.

So no one in your city that is deserving of your compassion, no one that would biblically fit the definition of "poor?" No one that is oppressed from the injustice of life -- even sin? No one going without meals? Necessities? No one with a need?

If they aren't in Haiti, they are just lazy people and leaches? Is that it, Coadie? They get your attention when they start constructing huts and their running water doesn't work. Gotcha... Sigh....

Poverty is so multi-layered, and this is not a modern phenom. It goes back to Biblical times as well.

Again... while there is no talk of Obama or Bush, or any conspiracy, you should watch the video I posted.

(BTW... where is this post that you replied to? Just random spot in the middle of the thread? I couldn't find it)

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Socialite

In such a way? I'm lost...

I just think it's the wrong question, onefaith. And if you pan out and listen to the overall discussion, you'll realize my response has little to do with you.

I think its an honest question. We need to access who is doing what so we can change that on a broad scale. What you are stating is how we change it on a broad scale, by starting with the individual. But in order to know what needs to be changed, we first need to know who exactly is taking the brunt of these things.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Socialite

So no one in your city that is deserving of your compassion, no one that would biblically fit the definition of "poor?" No one that is oppressed from the injustice of life -- even sin? No one going without meals? Necessities? No one with a need?

If they aren't in Haiti, they are just lazy people and leaches? Is that it, Coadie? They get your attention when they start constructing huts and their running water doesn't work. Gotcha... Sigh....

Poverty is so multi-layered, and this is not a modern phenom. It goes back to Biblical times as well.

Again... while there is no talk of Obama or Bush, or any conspiracy, you should watch the video I posted.

(BTW... where is this post that you replied to? Just random spot in the middle of the thread? I couldn't find it)

Socialite I think coadie is only addressing the lazy here who have had their chances and ignored them, not the legit poor who have had much trouble in life

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Socialite I think coadie is only addressing the lazy here who have had their chances and ignored them, not the legit poor who have had much trouble in life

I don't think he is, and haven't heard anything about legit poor, other than starving Africans with Malaria.

Even if they had their chances and ignored them, that fails to understand poverty -- and the oppression that comes with it. Talking to a hopeless man about making wealth is like talking to an Auschwitz prisoner about the stain on his clothes. We have this great ability to judge and condemn people that haven't pulled themselves up by their own boot straps, through the golden calf of the American Dream. If they haven't earned their way the way we have -- it's a direct picture of our spiritual walk. Those who save themselves, focus on their great works in how they view other Christians who haven't as arrived as much as they... the extreme end is legalism.

Grace is not a second chance, it's a new Way -- which means, it's a 3rd, 4th, 123rd, 180th chance....

[Hoovie]

Excuse me for a minute! Just want say this thread is quite entertaining! Who needs color tv? Lol!

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I think its an honest question. We need to access who is doing what so we can change that on a broad scale. What you are stating is how we change it on a broad scale, by starting with the individual. But in order to know what needs to be changed, we first need to know who exactly is taking the brunt of these things.

I'm still not sure on the trajectory of your question. Why is that so important? You haven't really articulated that.

There are plenty of studies out there that would answer your question. "Brunt," by the way infers a burden... is that what you mean?

As I stated in my "sermon" people from all socio-economic ways are involved in helping their cities, communities and neighborhoods.

I believe the Church should be on the forefront. And while I say that, I am not ignorant to the fact that, minus Corporate donations and private philanthropy, Christian organizations are the biggest charitable sector in the world. That said, our concepts for aid and helping tend to be postcards and kids millions of miles away (in fact, this is how we perceive missions quite often too). Our politics and American Western philosophy is informing our sense of justice much more than the cross is. This is why I think the subject is important to the Church at large.

Of course, we can't start at poverty, we have to start with a true understanding of the Gospel

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Socialite

I don't think he is, and haven't heard anything about legit poor, other than starving Africans with Malaria.

Even if they had their chances and ignored them, that fails to understand poverty -- and the oppression that comes with it. Talking to a hopeless man about making wealth is like talking to an Auschwitz prisoner about the stain on his clothes. We have this great ability to judge and condemn people that haven't pulled themselves up by their own boot straps, through the golden calf of the American Dream. If they haven't earned their way the way we have -- it's a direct picture of our spiritual walk. Those who save themselves, focus on their great works in how they view other Christians who haven't as arrived as much as they... the extreme end is legalism.

Grace is not a second chance, it's a new Way -- which means, it's a 3rd, 4th, 123rd, 180th chance....

Oh I agree but how many times are you going to give the guy on the street 5 dollars when you follow him to the booze store everytime? Eventually something else has to give.

I've worked with homeless and definitely want to continue that when I can but many are so used to their lifestyle, they really don't want change or don't have any desire to change. What do you do with those? Make them change?


I mean we have people so down that they are committing crimes just to get in jail for 30 days so they can eat and watch TV and have no worries about provision. That is the reality of our society for some, but certainly not everyone. I totally agree!

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Oh I agree but how many times are you going to give the guy on the street 5 dollars when you follow him to the booze store everytime? Eventually something else has to give.

I understand this example. But helping poverty for a drug addict is NOT giving him cash. There's other ways to meet each of the unique needs. Some are addicts, some mentally ill, some grew up without hope and are involved in crime, drugs and gangs, some are single mothers who were searching for love (5 kids, 2 abortions later), some are small families where they never had a worldview for the Corporate Ladder, are too old to start, but are working dead-end jobs and still not quite making it -- or barely making it; some are homeless because they are a lonely soul on the run.

Poverty is a symptom of brokenness. And every pandhandling bum (which is not even 5% of those who are classified as poor by American standards) that takes money, shoots up, craps on the sidewalk and pisses on himself is a picture of what you and I looked like before Grace entered our life. We were in an endless cycle of sin, hopeless, looking for fixes... Grace came to us. It wasn't a second chance, it was Grace. It was incredible love. Patient love. Not because we earned it. Not because we got it all right the first time. But it loved us even when we didn't love ourselves because we hated our own failures. It conquered it all. So... that's what I think about now when I see those "lazy leeches" sitting around. I see brokenness.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Socialite

I'm still not sure on the trajectory of your question. Why is that so important? You haven't really articulated that.

There are plenty of studies out there that would answer your question. "Brunt," by the way infers a burden... is that what you mean?

As I stated in my "sermon" people from all socio-economic ways are involved in helping their cities, communities and neighborhoods.

I believe the Church should be on the forefront. And while I say that, I am not ignorant to the fact that, minus Corporate donations and private philanthropy, Christian organizations are the biggest charitable sector in the world. That said, our concepts for aid and helping tend to be postcards and kids millions of miles away (in fact, this is how we perceive missions quite often too). Our politics and American Western philosophy is informing our sense of justice much more than the cross is. This is why I think the subject is important to the Church at large.

Of course, we can't start at poverty, we have to start with a true understanding of the Gospel

The way I understand this thread, we are dealing with political things. The churches are taking the "brunt" or burden as you would put it. That is the Catholics and other orthodox churches as well as baptists are far outdoing most pentecostal denominations in my opinion. But its not about how much you do, but the fact that you do what you can.

On a politicial level we need to understand what class is supporting what so that the others can be brought into the picture. Every class needs to help the poor in some way. Thats not happening though on a large scale or proportionally to what each one has in their pocket.

This is one of the things I've struggled with regarding tithing. IF I can afford to tithe but nothing else, I have little to "give" to the poor. So becomes my opportunity for volunteer service, but is that the only thing required of us? Money is always what these people cry out for, because thats the only language of love they really know.

To them, people are only giving them food because they want something from them; in the church's case, their soul, their drugs, their life.

Only those who get sick of living the way they are will respond to this.